A reader commented: “I don’t know what the hell is going on between white trans men and white trans women and the deepening chasm that seems to have formed between them, but it’s truly dispiriting to watch.
“I specify white because I haven’t noticed this level of antagonism between the trans men and trans women in communities of color I’ve been in. Is this a universal gap in the trans community and I just haven’t noticed, or is this really a white thing? I’m asking in all seriousness.”
This is not an official “Ask Matt” question, but rather one that was asked in a comment thread in one of my other posts. I’ll try to tackle it in some small way.
There is a great deal of complexity in the relationships between trans men and trans women, and I would guess that this is true regardless of race, ethnic background, age, class, geographic location, cultural gender expectations, and other variables. I would also say that all of these factors probably heavily influence these relationships. Because of this, I can only speculate based on my own experiences.
If, in fact, the observation in the above question is true – that a deepening chasm exists between white trans men and trans women, while the same phenomenon is not found in trans communities of color – I offer one possible explanation that has to do with communities in general. With regard to specific communities, such as trans communities of color, it would be necessary to hear from people in those communities to see what they think. My thoughts:
The short answer:
In many cases, we (white trans people) have no commonality that binds us or brings us together other than being trans.
The long answer:
White has been the dominant or default group in the United States from the time that we began our occupation and colonization of this country a few centuries ago. Because we are the default group, we have the luxury of not having to think in terms of our skin color.
For example, when I meet another white person with whom I have nothing in common, I don’t think, “We have nothing in common other than that we are white.” I think, “We have nothing in common.” My guess is that the other person thinks in a similar fashion.
And, for all intents and purposes, we have no reason to associate with each other after that, and we are probably not brought together after that. As the dominant group, it is not necessary for us to form bonds around the commonality – being white – that gives us membership in that group (although some of us do, but I prefer to stay away from those people).
Trans is not the dominant or default group. Therefore, people who have nothing else in common with each other are brought together because of this commonality.
An 80-year-old white Republican trans woman is brought together with a 20-year-old white Democratic trans man because they both belong to a marginalized group and they have a shared interest or experience based on membership in that group. Otherwise, they would probably never even meet, and they would probably have no reason to form other bonds – unless they are brought together by additional characteristics that marginalize them as well.
People who are members of more than one marginalized group, whether it involves race, sexual orientation, physical ability, age, economic class, or any other non-dominant or non-default status, have a mutual struggle in several arenas, so they will be brought together on more than one front and will benefit from maintaining bonds.
Using myself as an example, as I get older, I become increasingly marginalized by age. So I have an interest not only in trans issues, but in aging issues as well. And because these characteristics overlap, I have a particular interest in trans aging issues. Therefore, it serves me to establish bonds not only with trans people, but with people in general who are aging, and with trans people who are aging. I have more than one “agenda,” as do others who are marginalized for multiple reasons.
In my opinion, the more commonalities a particular group of people has and the less privilege a particular group of people has, the more likely they are to remain bound together, despite other differences. It does not serve them well to move apart or divide themselves by arbitrary standards, such as sex or gender (however, I’m sure that happens).
In this particular speculation of mine, the same would be true, in many cases, for trans people of color, who are not only marginalized because of their trans status, but because of their skin color as well. They would have multiple commonalities that might bring them together in various arenas with various goals – the non-marginalization of trans people, people of color, and trans people of color. They are bound together by more than just one issue or “agenda,” and it would not serve them to split along gender lines.
In addition, our binary gender system has acculturated us into a two-gendered structure of “opposites” – a “men are from Mars, women are from Venus” type of structure. Because of this, we tend to move in opposite directions unless we have something else that brings us together. And if, as members of the dominant group, “trans” is the only thing that brings us together, and gender is established to move us apart, then it is easy to follow along that divide – especially because gender is such a major component of most people’s identity.
This is obviously an oversimplification and a generalization. Gender roles and expectations in various communities – both white and of color – differ greatly, as they do among various religious groups, ages, and social and economic classes, regardless of race or ethnic background. This is one possible answer of many, but it is one that seems feasible to me.
However, I have already put my disclaimers on this. That’s why I hope to hear from readers on their experiences within their own communities regarding the relationships they are seeing between trans men and trans women. So on to the discussion. Readers?
As a white trans woman who knows and likes a number of white trans men, I’m puzzled by the question. I didn’t realize such a chasm existed. Trans men have been some of the most helpful people to me at key moments of my transition, and remain good friends. If we were supposed to stay apart like the Jets and the Sharks none of us got the memo.
But like I said at the beginning, I’m puzzled. Maybe that’s not the nature of the chasm suggested. There are certainly differences between our interests and aspects of our transition. I’ve just never experienced those as elements of separation. Perhaps others have. I’ll be interested to see others comment on this.
Since I’m the orginal asker of the question I’ll throw in a few observations.
I can’t say as if its a universal phenomenon or just something that is isolated to particular internet sites… but it would seem to have something to do with perceived access to the lesbian community on the part of trans men, and their alleged unwillingness to advocate for trans women to said lesbian communities especially in regards to policies and queer space activities that explicitly or implicitly exclude transwomen altogether. (For example, the Michigan Womens Musific Festival…)
From the outside I’ve noticed that the most vocal in these controversies tend to be white, whether trans woman or trans man.. and that the queer spaces being fought over are overwhelmingly white… which led me to believe that this was something happening between white trans women and white trans men.
There also seem to be alot of academic and lay discussions about “who has more privilege” between trans men and trans women that goes way over my head as I can’t relate to the areas of privilege they are speaking about as a black woman. Such as apparent studies revealing that (white) trans women’s incomes fall dramatically post transition, while (white) trans men’s incomes increase.”
The white trans men I know in everyday life, including my fiance, often speak of feeling “blamed” or “resented” by trans women for their ostensibly greater passing privilege and apparent greater freedom from anti-transphobic violence… altho if my friends’ experiences as trans men are to be taken as typical, these areas of “advantage” are vastly overestimated.
Overall it just seems like SOMETHING is going on and I don’t know what to think. I have personally not experienced this kind of hostility or tension amongst my fellow trans men of color… but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. From where I sit it just looks like something weird going on amongst White transfolk, particularly in regards to access to greater (White) Queer culture.. but I’m not at all sure if that’s the case or not.
It’s interesting that you don’t mention misogyny as a reason why many white trans men don’t seem to want anything to do with trans women (of any color, as far as I can tell).
In my experience, many trans men my age (I’m turning 30) think that trans men are cool, sexy, and politically radical by virtue of being trans men, and they derive support from, and support, a community of queer female-assigned-at-birth people that agrees with them and admires them. On the contrary, the same people seem to think that trans women are icky, unattractive, and politically retrogressive, for all the same reasons that trans men are the opposite of those things. Seems like misogyny to me — the sort of thing people like Julia Serano cover pretty well.
I think that there are a lot of reasons for any rifts that exist in the community between trans men and trans women, and I agree that misogyny is probably one of them. Thanks for bringing that up.
I just wanted to address one possible explanation for one possible phenomenon that I was asked about. I’m not sure that I have the energy to take on all the rest. But one thing I do support is open discussion about issues, and I really like it when I go to a conference and there is a specific workshop or something set up for dialogue.
It doesn’t always work out, but I think it’s a start.
As one of the (white) people who was also involved in the original thread…
First, while i appreciate Jane’s observation that these tensions are a white-only phenomena, that is one person’s view. It’s valid for her but doesn’t necessarily make it universally so.
I do think, Matt, that your comment about racist oppression binding together communities of color makes sense… when you have multiple factors binding communities together, they’re going to be tighter in some ways, although i don’t think that necessarily means they won’t be ripping on each other or even violent with one another… because I think any oppression creates tension and desperation within oppressed communities and they tend to feed on themselves, that’s how oppression works.
Just to clarify… I think most trans guys I’ve met are great. I overwhelmingly support their rights and struggles and the uniqueness of their experiences. There are a few issues I have with things I’ve heard from some trans men:
1) Use/ownership of the term ‘tranny’ and having no perspective that this term might have extremely different connotations to trans women than it does for them and that it is used as a term of derision against trans women while it’s almost never used that way against trans men. All I ask for is some empathy and perspective.
2) Trans guys being permitted (and even welcomed) in a lot of queer women’s spaces where trans women often get stink-eye or are even banned. Yes, there are members of the trans masculine spectrum who still ID in some way as queer women while at the same time owning their masculinity. When I hear trans guys who have no slight awareness of the statement this is making both for other trans men and for trans women by claiming membership in such spaces, yes, I have issues.
3) In the originally referenced thread, I was responding to a trans man who, I thought, was spewing a lot of resentment towards white trans women and somehow claiming they’re all working upscale, white collar jobs which is an absurd assumption. My question might be… why are some trans guys saying things like this?
4) This is not in any way trans men’s fault, but most of the ‘trans’ positions in national GLBT organizations are held by transmasculine people. I’ve know a number of white and non-white trans women activists with much experience who feel as if they’ve never been given a fair shake at getting their foot in the door in these organizations.
Here’s another example of tension between the communities. There was the recent story about a trans woman who was mistreated at Ball State Memorial Hospital in Indiana. She came to the ER coughing up blood and insulted and ignored by the staff she encountered. They ultimately didn’t even give her treatment and she had to go elsewhere. In the midst of protesting against this situation, several trans men posted on Facebook that Ball State Hospital isn’t transphobic because they went there and were treated with respect. I’m glad they got good treatment, but that doesn’t mean that a trans woman going to the same people might not be treated differently… see, visible trans women push different buttons with many people than trans men do. I’m not ignoring oppression against trans men (and that it’s oppression unique to them) but I do ask people to not make statements like… ‘well, they were nice to trans men, therefore, they aren’t transphobic.’ Too simplistic, whether you’re talking about MichFest or Ball State Hospital.
I’m not going to get into “passing” questions or “who has it harder”… those are other threads in and of themselves worth discussing, but complex ones.
What I think is sad is how many in the trans women and trans men’s communities know so little about one another… and no, I don’t think that’s only a white issue but I would love to hear the perspective of more trans people of color on all parts of the gender spectrum.
I totally agree that trans men and trans women push different buttons for people outside of the trans community. And I think that misogyny is the basis for transphobia and homophobia exhibited by non-trans and straight people.
I also agree that trans women and trans men don’t know enough about each other. When I first started transition, I met trans women who said that they had never heard of trans men and weren’t aware that we existed. Granted, that was 13 years ago and things have changed, but there is still more that needs to be done to move the communication and relationships forward.
At some point we’ve all said hurtful things or done hurtful things to other people. That doesn’t mean that those actions are right and just, but they do happen.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, feelings, and thoughts.
Treat others as you wish to be treated.
Share in this journey together despite sex, gender, race, etc.
When we stop bickering about who’s got it easier or who’s got it worse, or whether or not there is a divide between us as a group, we’ll have loads of time to IMPROVE things for all of us.
There are thousands of haters out there who would harm us or take away our rights in a second if they could. Stop fueling their fire by struggling amongst ourselves… fight with the oppressing forces instead!
Agreed!
That’s a lovely sentiment, but what happens when the most tangible oppression/silencing/erasure/appropriation is coming from within the community and “allies”?
My two cents…
When I first tried to transition back in 1987, an aunt asked me, “Why would you want to repudiate your male privilege?” My short and sweet answer was, “Because I don’t want to be a male.” My desire to transition to female was much more important to me than whatever perks being male might have anointed me with. That was impossible for my aunt – and since then, other people – to understand, but to me, it’s no more difficult to foresake male privilege than it is to order coffee instead of tea.
In our white male-dominated society, males are given gender-specific privileges practically from birth; living with these privileges is socialized into the male in countless ways, and with such finesse that most men don’t really realize it. For a male to repudiate this privileges is anathema to the vast majority of our society, even by those who are discriminated against by such privileges.
Perhaps some transwomen subconsciously resent having to abandon or simply “losing” those privileges and turn this resentment upon those who weren’t “born into it”, such as transmen. Whether transwomen realize it or purposely think about it, having once been socialized with male privilege is, sometimes, a difficult thing to switch off, leading some to develop these kinds of low-level resentments toward those who weren’t born into it.
Men of color were, from the outset, denied the same privileges as white men, and so, perhaps never having owned those same perks, seeing them eroded even further due to transition to female may not be as psychologically bothersome to them. What you said, Matt, along these same lines is, I believe, very possibly the correct answer to the question, so I won’t take up space reiterating it. In short, being bereft of male privilege for a man of color might not be as traumatic as it might be to a white male because the levels of privilege were always different.
Is there a kind of subconscious “competition for resources” between white trans folk for lesbian companions? I don’t really know, but I suppose it is possible. That might cause friction between transmen and -women. Most transwomen I know of are “translesbians”, so maybe there’s something to that idea.
It’s an interesting sociological phenomenon that, in truth, I was only vaguely aware of, but it would be a fascinating study to conduct. I’d be interested in seeing what other folks think about the matter.
Thanks for your thoughts on the issue, Matt. Shalom!
@Gina – I’ve witnessed first-hand all four of the points you made. In particular #2, while I have no great need/desire to access queer women’s spaces, I know many trans women who are both queer and trans and have a difficult time within those spaces – in no small par due to trans-masculine folks and “allies” shutting them out and/or positioning them (us) as politically/culturally retrogressive.
A personal anecdote – This summer I attended a performance by a trans-male led musical group (Athens Boys Choir). I stepped outside to get some air and overheard 2 cis women I vaguely know from being active in the local LGBT community and the trans-male boyfriend of one of them. One of the women commented “I didn’t realize there would be so many *S-Bombs* here”. The guy chuckled and made some snark about adam’s apples and how it’s so obvious to point out the M2Fs.
I mentioned to the three that their comments were overheard by at least one trans woman who didn’t appreciate being called a word one really hears only in porn. As it dawned on them that I was talking about myself, they felt the need to go over (in insultingly simple terms) how reclaiming language is important and empowering and besides, they like trans men and one of them *is* trans.
It’s an increasing number of interactions like this (but less obvious) that keep me out of local activism and the local community. There seems to be an almost knee-jerk reaction to trans women that makes people assume we don’t get how politics, culture, language … the world? actually works. This serves to self select a number of trans women out of “trans” groups and events making them more likely to actually be trans-male and queer-ID’d cis female events.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
“In short, being bereft of male privilege for a man of color might not be as traumatic as it might be to a white male because the levels of privilege were always different.”
Stefani, I’m not saying this statement is completely wrong, but it’s interesting how it all becomes the onus of the white trans women and how they relate to trans men and not going both ways. It pretty much gives trans men a free pass while trans women are the cause of the friction. I find that overly-simplistic. I also think it’s highly incorrect to paint white trans women with a broad brush that we all had exalted male privilege. Many of us were gender variant from the get-go, came through the gay community as fairies or as perceived ‘effeminate’ males… I’m not saying we didn’t have white privilege, but we didn’t have standard white, straight male privilege in the sense I think you mean. Again, this is a stereotypical view of what a white trans woman looks like.
Also, just want to say most of the trans women I know (including myself) are not lesbians and I still have the issues I mentioned with some trans men.
@ Tim C. … you rock!
I think there is trend in certain liberal circles toward increasing hostility toward each other, particularly in discussions of privilege, etc. It’s become a sort of proof of membership badge for people to go accusing each other of privilege. The result is a lot of infighting and alienation. The particular circles this tends to happen in tend to be dominated by feminist/intellectuals who tend to be white.
I think you are probably right that people who have more common factors binding them together are less likely to fall prey to infighting.
It’s interesting to juxtapose this comment with laughriotgirl’s question: “what happens when the most tangible oppression/silencing/erasure/appropriation is coming from within the community and ‘allies’?” Perhaps the reason why you feel that there is hostility is that people in certain communities are beginning to feel more and more confident pointing out oppressive behavior where it exists, rather than giving people a free pass on being oppressive just because they are a member of a particular group or just because they call themself an ally. To someone who is used to getting that free pass, it may seem hostile. To someone who is used to getting crapped on by people who claim to be their friends, it may seem empowering.
I feel like I am back in gender studies class. I too have experienced this chasm. In my experience with white trans women is a coming together and placing a twenty foot wall around themselves in self protection. As a white trans man, i am excluded from that club.
I have to admit that when I see/meet a transwoman who doesn’t “pass” ( i really hate that word.) i have a gut reaction to avoid. But, i know that I have this reaction, and I take that and use my self awareness to open myself up and make an effort to get to know that person.
This is how I think we overcome the chasm. Each person needs to open up and make strides to see individuals and change thier own perceptions of generalizations.
I realize I am not going to get along with everyone, but I got to know someone and did not make assumptions about them on a generalization of a category my human brain tried to put them in.
Maybe I am off the mark here and missed many of the nuiances of the discussion.
This was a good discussion. Thanks to everyone who commented and shared your thoughts and idea. I hope that we get more.
I’m disappointed in my fellow trans men who are so disrespectful to others in the community. I don’t doubt that misogyny exists, but I haven’t witnessed it personally as displayed by FTMs toward MTFs.
What I have experienced is sexism from some MTFs in the form of comments such as:
-trans men only transition so they can gain male privilege
-men are pigs
-oh, of course you would say that, just like a man
Then there are the MTFs who switch from masculine to feminine pronouns to refer to a man that they discover is actually a trans man, even if he has a beard!
My point is, we can all probably point to bad behavior by members of one sub-group toward another under the transgender umbrella, but it’s not everyone, not even the majority, who perpetrate these disrespectful acts. For me, these isolated incidents, so far, haven’t stopped me from interacting with trans women, only from interacting with certain ones.
Is it these individual instances that contribute to an “ever widening chasm” between FTMs and MTFs, or is it simply a matter of the chasm always being there and people just taking more of a notice of it so that it *appears* to be getting worse?
You’ve never sen misogyny against trans women perpetuated by trans men? You have seen a number of examples of “sexism” (not sure a person who doesn’t hold the cultural power to enforce prejudice can enact theose prejudices… and trust me, trans women have no cultural clout even within our own communities) perpetuated by trans women? I’m, honestly surprised. How about the very general societal-level stuff Gina brought up that nobody seems to want to talk about?
Accusing trans men of transitioning to gain male privilege is an old “explanation” that gets thrown out mostly by radical feminists. Even still, I have never ever heard tans women accuse trans men of transitioning to access male privvies… I have accused some trans men of acting from a place of male privileged or benefiting from same, but as a reason to transition that seems like a pretty weak one.
Stefani M.
“Men of color were, from the outset, denied the same privileges as white men, and so, perhaps never having owned those same perks, seeing them eroded even further due to transition to female may not be as psychologically bothersome to them. ”
I know this wasn’t the thrust of your point, but if I go by what I know of the men in my community, cis or trans, men of color are most definitely bothered psychologically by not having access to certain male privileges that white males are allowed to take for granted. One would say that in certain communities of color, many black and brown men are in fact obsessed with reasserting their manhood by displaying a form of aggressive, hypermasculinity which they hope to enhance whatever few privileges they are allowed.
While it IS difficult to relate to losing something you never had, there is an overarching awareness of (and resentment over) who has what male privileges in this society and why.
Now a trans woman being male assigned and never wanting male privilege to begin with is going to be way more ambivalent about losing it. But white men occupy the top “caste” in this society so I can imagine the losing or gaining of certain privileges could be a major adjustment for anyone moving away from or into this “coveted” space.
For white transwomen I can imagine growing up being treated as an honest to goodness potential participant in society, not just a surplus body that takes up space from someone more deserving, but a first class citizen, with a whole society invested in you, or at least in people who look just like you getting to grow up and take one’s place at the table… To suddenly find oneself treated like a person who should not exist, whose life is disposable and whose potential is worthless.. that’s gotta sting .
For white trans men.. I can imagine it would be difficult to cop to (or even learn) the myriad ways in which at least appearing to be a cis white male opens certain doors of opportunity. But at the same time I dont quite see how coming into white male privilege much later in life compares with being raised with it from birth.
I realize this is a dangerous thing to say, as some critics of the trans community would say that transitioning to one’s preferred gender later in life is completely different than being raised in it from birth and so you can’t treat trans people and cis people similar beause of the presumed difference in dynamics… But I’m not talking about the validity of identity here, which ultimately can only be articulated by the individual, I’m talking about access to privilege, which is awarded by society itself. You can’t decide for someone else who they are. But you can’t decide for society how it chooses to treat you either.
Of course I’m not white and I don’t claim to know what being white is like for people who are… just saying from the outside… going from socially recognized white male to socially recognized white female or vice versa is a fundamentally different social experience due to the Whiteness involved… That may seem offensive to some, but sorry, white people do have their own unique cultural issues and I do believe the dramatic shifting of privilege and status and arguments about who gets to have what access to which spaces in society are among them. That whiteness is continuously erased, overlooked, ignored and denied time and again whenever we discuss trans relationships inside and outside the trans community is worrisome to me… because again.. outsider looking in… so many of the things you (whitefolks) tend to generalize from your own experience onto the trans community are completely foreign to me.
Personally I would love to see a critical analysis of whiteness and the intersection of racial identity with trans identity, written from a trans perspective, but I haven’t seen too many trans academics exploring this question.
Yikes looking over what I said here:
“But at the same time I dont quite see how coming into white male privilege much later in life compares with being raised with it from birth. ”
This didn’t come out right.. I meant to say that being raised with white male privilege from birth and coming into white male privilege later in life would necessarily be two completely different experiences… in the former, you have always had certain entitlements and probably didn’t realize you even had them until they were gone. in the latter, you would have to learn things you didn’t even know that you didn’t know.
Alot of effort just to make a very minor, even obvious point. But the way I had written it came off dismissively and I apologize.
I’ve been on a white-dominated forum where there is such a rift between some of the trans men and some of the trans women. This isn’t the case with everyone on the forum, and what I’ve seen has been started by the women. Part of the problem is internalized misandry – they act very much like they resent all men because they were once forced to play the role. Another part of it is all this privilege that they see trans men as having, largely the kind of privilege that someone could only claim we had if they had no idea what a trans man’s life can actually be like. Some of them are just plain erasive, addressing everyone on the forum as “girls” (as opposed to only addressing the girls on the forum). And when confronted on this behavior, their reactions range from halfhearted apology to complete denial that anything was wrong because we supposedly “know” that they didn’t mean it that way or whatever. The fact that the women vastly outnumber the men doesn’t help the issue.
On the other hand, I’ve been to another forum that was dominated by women and had a very tiny male populace, and aside from one incident when I accidentally scared someone because of my presented gender (long story), no one has had any difficulty getting along. The women there are inclusive of the male quotient (without making it all about us), understanding of our struggle, and are generally nothing short of respectful. It seems to make a world of difference.
Of course, that’s just my experience in trans woman-dominated areas of the Internet, and there are doubtless other problems in other places.
Wow, AnonyMouse, we must be hanging out in the same Internet spaces.
Wow, what a hot-button issue. You really opened up a can of worms, Matt! But that’s good – sounds like the trans community needs to address this and continue discussions in the name of unity. We have enough enemies outside the community, we don’t need to fight amongst ourselves too.
Basically, I think that many people are assholes (can I say that on your blog?); therefore, you’ll find some in every group, and you’ll find divisions in every group. Why should we expect that trans men and women be different, whether white or otherwise? It’s just math, really, and generalizations can be dangerous.
AnonyMouse, I know the site you’re referring to and you’re right, they sure give MtFs a bad name. Fortunately, I’ve met wonderful trans women who are nothing like that, but that site has turned off many trans guys to interacting with trans women and further perpetuates prejudices on both sides.
I agree that misogyny and misandry seem to be a factor in all this, but I don’t know if it’s more prevalent among whites rather than people of color. If it is, there could be several reasons for it – most of which have already been mentioned here.
Thanks for an eye-opening discussion all, and I hope our community can work together to resolve things.
This is a huge issue that I think probably transcends other categories or characteristics that people share or don’t share, and probably plays itself out in different ways in different communities.
We tend to think of the trans “community” as small because we are constantly told that we are small and that our numbers don’t necessitate this service or that law or whatever. But the fact is that, as a “community,” we are huge.
There are so many of us and we are so diverse that disagreements, arguments, and divides are probably going to happen, and a divide along gender lines in a culture that specifically divides along gender lines is not surprising.
Not to sound Pollyanna-ish (which I often do), but maybe the most important thing is that we are able to come together when we need to, and we seem to be making some small progress, so in many cases, we are able to do this. And we can do this while we keep working on whatever rifts arise.
But this is an important discussion, so keep it up. And thanks to everyone who is reading.
@ Jane: “Personally I would love to see a critical analysis of whiteness and the intersection of racial identity with trans identity, written from a trans perspective, but I haven’t seen too many trans academics exploring this question.”
^Seconded!
Thanks for this blog post, Matt.
I have two things I’d like to add to the conversation, as an (intersex) trans guy who is an academic by profession. The first is that one thing that distinguishes white experience from the experiences of people of color is that the strong link between race and class in the U.S. means that more white people have access to privileged higher education. And depressing as this may seem, I fear that such an education can increase the alienation between trans men and trans women.
There are a lot of white cis female professors out there who were themselves educated in the era of “evil empire” feminist transphobia directed specifically at trans women, and they’ve only had their consciousnesses raised partially since then. In my experience, there are also many who preach Butlerian gender subversion who present it with a particular transmisogynistic spin (you know–the ones who use very feminine trans women as an example of how gender subversion gets contained, never raising butch trans men)–the sort of thing Serano critiques. These professors provide a whole theoretical framework for legitimating transmisogyny to a largely white student body. These educators certainly don’t invent transmisogyny, which is pervasive, but they buttress it in the very people who are likely to run festivals, open clubs, and organize conventions.
Since white people as a whole have more financial resources, we have control over a wider number of venues that can have busted policies, like welcoming trans men and excluding trans women from a “women’s space.”
The other thing I want to say isn’t about race/ethnicity, but I did want to say it. I know that transmisandry happens. But I think that to treat transmisogyny and transmisandry as equal problems is as broken as treating sexism and “reverse sexism” as equal problems. As a trans man married to a trans woman, I see every day how much more privileged I am. The dynamic that exists is one that white trans men have the greatest duty to address.
Peace.
I think this is a really outstanding point. I do have a quibble, though:
“But I think that to treat transmisogyny and transmisandry as equal problems is as broken as treating sexism and “reverse sexism” as equal problems. As a trans man married to a trans woman, I see every day how much more privileged I am. The dynamic that exists is one that white trans men have the greatest duty to address.”
I would tend to agree that trans women’s supposed misandry, insofar as it exists, is of little consequence. But the factors you identified, specifically the influence of certain schools of radfem thought, have spawned a certain unique flavour of misandry among (mostly white) trans men.
And that actually is important, because it’s one of the primary sources of transmisogyny among transmasculine people. Unlike transmisogyny in the broader culture, trans-transmisogyny (for lack of a better term) seems to be largely founded on dislike/distrust of men and people who associate with men, the belief that transwomen are still in some way men, and the (unspoken, but acted upon) belief that trans men are still in some way women.
This is quite obviously problematic not only for trans women, but also for male-identified, cis-male-socializing gay trans men such as myself. Transmasculine misandry/transmisogyny marginalizes anyone within the “community” who’s not both female-assigned and in some way female- or lesbian-identified.
Oh, just to add: I’m really not trying to derail what you were saying into a “but what about the menz?!?!?!” whine. Truth is the group I identified – male-identified trans men who socialize primarily with cis men – have more than enough privilege available to us in the broader culture when we’ve transitioned, especially if we’re white. And those of us who are gay have the gay community available to us, and we’re usually included reasonably enthusiastically. It’s not a big deal to us if we feel marginalized or if our identities are invalidated in the transqueer community. We just simply…drop out of it.
So on the one hand it’s not a big deal. On the other hand, it is a big deal, because the group of trans men who could most closely relate to lesbian trans women, who can stand up to lesbians and women’s groups without fear of losing ties to those communities and their spaces, isn’t present in the community.
Just a thought I had that is likely related to this. I have a number of trans women friends from outside the US and Europe, I also came out (both as a gay man and as a trans woman) among people involved in the ball scene.
A point I have made to mostly white gay and lesbian people who would like to remove the “T” from “LGBT” is that outside of Western Europe, the US, and Canada there isn’t much of a division between trans and gay. This is also very true in the ball scene and the communities that develop around that scene.
It’s almost as if being white, growing up to expect that most of your needs will be met by society, and having your experience held as the unchallenged default makes it almost like a survival mechanism in order to acclimate to the dwindling amount of social cookies one gets. The further from the ideal (hetero/cis/wealthy/male) a white person finds oneself, the more likely it seems that people will – I don’t know, isolate and snipe at the neighbors to protect what it is we feel we have left??
Alternatively, it could be a simple act of privilege that white trans people can argue about who as access to what social services, or music festivals, or “spaces”. I have to say, when I was in a position where survival sex work looked like my only option to afford both hormones and food I didn’t care much about who was going to Michfest or who was accessing the DV shelter (until I needed to use it and couldn’t)
I also want to bring up online communities. I’ve been involved with a few, and visited most. What I’ve noticed is trans-feminine dominated spaces with a small but active participation by trans-masculine people. This seems to be the majority.
What I have seen in trans-masculine dominated online spaces/communities is there is absolutely no participation from trans-feminine people in any manner. There also seems to be no real move or need to make it include trans women (and that’s fine I suppose). It’s as if the spaces were intended to exclude trans women from participation.
Aside from sites devoted to porn or “dating”, I can’t name one online community that is exclusively trans-female-centered by design with no attempt made to be relevant to trans men.
@ laughriotgirl
i have noticed this too, u are right.
I think age plays a part in MTFs and FTMs gaps.
it seems like a lot of young trans FTMs sites are not inclusive of MTFs, most who tend to be older, even the young MTFs arent included. Its seems like there is definately an FTM only space with FTMs. whereas if its MTFs spaces, the older MTFs there tend to include and welcome the FTMs any way they can. As an FTM, its just puzzles me , why the guys are like this.
Delibarately excluding MTFs, and just about not wanting anything to do with them. is it ageism or misogyny??
I’ve noticed this, too. I can’t presume to tell you what the intentions of the sites’ creators were, but I can tell you why I appreciate having trans-male-only spaces. Although I enjoy spending time around trans women, as we do have quite a few things in common and the ones I’ve known have been great fun to be around, they’re still women, and they don’t fulfill certain social needs. As a guy, I crave the kind of social interaction that guys tend to do together – not so much the content as the ability to cut loose and say whatever’s on our mind (and I’m not talking about women bashing, either – just plain ol’ conversations about guy things) without a woman injecting her perspective. That probably sounds misogynist, but it really isn’t. There just happen to be some things that guys need to hash out amongst themselves, usually because they aren’t relevant to women. Things like periods and binding and strap-ons and our respective manhoods in general. Plus there’s just this social pull to be around dudes. There’s something comforting about a group of people who are like you in the gender sense, something that many women are no doubt familiar with. While I know that it’s the same way for cis men (aside from the trans guy things), I think it’s probably more important for trans guys because we are more vulnerable. A lot of the world just sees us as women, no questions asked, and even after we finally pass we can be victimized by misogyny in ways that trans women aren’t (though some cis men might). So for me, it’s not about ageism OR misogyny – it’s about having a safe corner of the Internet to be with people like myself.
As for the lack of areas that are trans-women only, I’m guessing that has to do with the fact that we’re still playing catch-up after years of trans male erasure. The fact is that gender politics among trans people are not as simple as male vs. female, and both sides have certain privileges that enable them to hurt the other. It’s probable that in our quest to be seen and accepted, trans men have overlooked the fact that trans women need a safe space to discuss their unique experiences and share in female companionship as well. That’s definitely misogynist, and it needs to be understood that every trans-female-only space is not a deliberate or accidental attempt to erase the experience and existence of trans men.
I just want to say that there’s a seeming stereotype of typical trans women that they’re mostly white older transitioners. There are trans women of all ages and colors (as are trans men). These stereotypes are making the large trans women of color community even more invisible than they’re made by others. I even notice, Matt, that your example up at the top of the thread falls into this (a 20s democratic trans man vs. a 80 year old republican trans woman). Yes, I am an ‘older’ white trans woman but I’ve actually met several younger white trans men who were… yes, conservatives. *creepy/horrors* Moreover, there are a large number of older white trans men transitioning in their 40s and 50s. They don’t tend to be on forums (I think because they don’t feel welcome?). We need to get away from the simplifications and assumptions because they’re part of what’s messing up our community and taking away its strength.
Of course, you’re right, Gina, and I didn’t mean for that example to represent actual trans people. I just pulled it out of my head. I know trans people, both men and women, from ages 18 to 70-something.
When I first started transition 13 years ago, I met far more trans women than trans men, and a lot of them had transitioned in middle age, but I think trans people in general are transitioning at an increasingly younger age. Even so, as I met more trans men during my transition, there were many, like me, who transitioned at an older age (I was 42 when I started).
But while there are still quite a few men and women transitioning in middle age, I think that is shifting downward, thanks to information available on the Internet, support groups on campus, and parents who are recognizing and supporting their trans children.
Most of the trans people I know, regardless of age or gender, are politically liberal, but it’s probably because of the circles I hang out in. I have also met very conservative trans men and women, and they are younger than me.
I think that non-trans people tend to think that we’re all very liberal, but we are all so very different, and there are so many of us, that there’s no way we could all be alike. Plus that would be really boring and we wouldn’t have good discussions here.
Anyway, thanks for pointing that out, because I really didn’t mean to perpetuate any stereotype. However, because it came out of my head (and I think I have used that same example before), perhaps it says something about me, so I need to be careful that I am not unconsciously perpetuating stereotypes.
These are great comments, insights, and personal experiences. Thanks to all of you for this discussion.
“but it would seem to have something to do with perceived access to the lesbian community on the part of trans men, and their alleged unwillingness to advocate for trans women to said lesbian communities especially in regards to policies and queer space activities that explicitly or implicitly exclude transwomen altogether. (For example, the Michigan Womens Musific Festival…) ”
I have had this directed at me before by trans women and I wonder where it comes from, this perception that trans men are unwilling to advocate for trans women in lesbian spaces. That perception goes against what I have heard and witnessed.
I wonder… could it be in number of “woman only” spaces that specifically exclude trans women, yet have active and loyal participation by trans men. Could it be “woman and trans” events that either passively exclude, or are hostile to trans women. Could it be the exoticification of trans masculinity by cis queer women who at the same time fret about trans women accessing the same bathroom they use in the club?
Think any of that could be why trans women are under the impression that trans men occupy women’s space while trans women are left either actively excluded or made to feel so uncomfortable they may as well be excluded. The fact this has been happening for years with seriously very little real change should say something about it.
I mean if you look at what’s been said here. Trans women lack specific online spaces, while trans men are present and active in both their own exclusive communities as well as spaces trans women created and maintain. Trans men are actively encouraged to participate in queer women’s spaces and events even though lesbian trans women are largely excluded. Do you see how it may appear that trans men aren’t exactly advocating for trans women to be included in much?
Thanks laughriotgirl for your reply. I appreciate having the insight.
As I mentioned, I have not experienced this acceptance of trans men in spaces that exclude trans women. When I have been in queer women’s spaces, I have seen and interacted with MTFs there as well.
However, I was questioning where the perception comes from that trans men aren’t *advocating* for trans women to be included. We can all say that ‘everyone knows this to be true’ but I am interested in first-hand accounts rather than perceptions that are repeated and passed along but not based on specific information. I’m not saying that these accounts don’t exist. I’m saying that it’s easy to repeat something without checking into the basis.
I would also say that trans women do not “lack” specific online spaces. I can perform a search of Yahoo online groups and can find quite a list of those either for trans women only or for women only that includes trans women. If trans men are commenting here that they belong to MTF-dominated online communities that allow FTMs and to FTM-only communities that do not allow MTFs, that does not mean that MTF-only online communities do not exist. FTMs don’t belong to them and so would not necessarily be familiar with them.
And as for social groups, New England is dotted with SISTERS groups that do not have FTM membership. It’s unfortunate that a couple comments on a blog could be the launching point for another “perception.”
americantransman – the thing about *not* doing something is, it is most likely going to be something invisible and hard to quantify. When there is an observable trend, something is going on. When the result of that trend is a lack of participation by a group who could benefit from, or enjoy participation in, that event/group/etc. then there is likely some unchallenged marginalization at work.
Since I’m not trying to access queer women’s spaces, I can only go by what I have seen in the local lesbian club or observed with a friend who is a trans lesbian. Most of my friends are cis lesbians, this goes way back tp before transition. I’ve been to the local lesbian club as both a gay man and a cis-appearing woman with no conflict aside from some drama when someone needs to play “girlfriend” to help out when flirtation is unwanted.
So, in the club – large numbers of trans men and trans-masculine spectrum folks (Columbus Ohio seems to have a pretty large F2M population). Usually there are no trans women present (obviously there could have been a small army of totally stealth trans women, but I doubt it) or a single M2F who it isolated in a corner. Why? There are many trans women locally who ID as lesbian.
Different club, different night: Some gals from one of the support groups invited me to a lesbian burlesque show. There were about 10 performers and most of them were partnered with trans spectrum men or appeared to be so.
I arrived and waited in a small line for the bathroom. Behind me at the door were two cis women talking to security (who happens to be a rather masculine FTM GQ boi) about a “man in the restroom”. Long story short, I got to walk a very upset trans women home after she was “asked” to use the men’s room, by someone who IDs as a “tranny boi”.
As far as online spaces and groups etc. A few months ago, my former employers gave everyone $250 (US) to donate to registered charities/non-profits. I gave $75 to a LGBT group and a trans-male specific group that I found online. The remaining $100 I wanted to give to a trans woman specific group. I couldn’t find any that specifically centered trans women. I sent out a call on Facebook and Twitter – and my friends are pretty well connected in their regions. After a week of some discussions we found one group that does work with HIV+ trans women in Boston… the other two groups I found in minutes, the trans woman group took days because nobody could think of a non-profit that didn’t include trans men.
So just three minor examples of how things play out. In isolation, not a huge deal and easily explained away. Together it probably paints a rough picture of the local community (or a skewed view of it). But, when taken with other anecdotes, these could point to a trend.
That bathroom incident just infuriates me. For any kind of gender-diverse community to do the same thing that is done to us (and primarily to trans women) by the larger non-trans and non-gender-diverse population is inexcusable.
Have we learned nothing from these ridiculous “bathroom panic” scenarios that come up every time an inclusive public accommodations bill surfaces anywhere? That we would do this among ourselves, to our own community – it just boggles my mind.
I hope it’s not part of a trend, and if it is, I hope it is soundly rejected by people of conscience.
americantransman
There is nothing wrong with having an FTM and MTF space only. its a good thing, but they should also be inclusive groups for both.
Most MTFs dominated groups existed way before the visibility of FTMs, as more FTMs became more and more open in society, MTFs groups became inclusive of the guys.
the reverse is not true for FTM sites, most of these are fairly recent and deliberately are just FTM sites. youtube alone had many FTM only channels, with FTM names and objectives, how can transwomen even begin to want to join such a site, where its clear that its a boy’s club. Sometimes its cool to be just with the guys and do guy things, but we shouldnt lose sight of our community, we need each other, trans people are fairly a small community, even in the lgbt there is transphobia, seperatism between MTFs and FTMs isnt helping our cause at all.
and sorry that was so long..
Thanks laughriotgirl.
Not too long at all. Thank you for the info.
We can all probably point to individual incidents where someone from one trans sub-group has been disrespectful to someone in another. The trans boi who insulted the trans woman in your example is an unfortunate and really discouraging (and annoying) example and I’m sorry that happened to your friend. (Just out of curiosity, how did you handle the incident? Did you have a chance to talk to the security guy and set him straight?)
We can all probably point to individual incidents where folks from one trans sub-group came to the defense and support of people in another. One incident here in the Boston area on the positive side involved an organized group of MTFs who were harassed by security of a restaurant that they had frequented in the past. They were told that they were dressed inappropriately (although there were cis women in the restaurant dressed no differently) and they were told not to use the ladies room. When the word got out, there were FTMs who went to the hearing at the local town hall in support of the MTFs who had been harassed. We could probably trade anecdotes like these all day.
The potential disproportion of MTF-only to FTM-only organized groups, however, is one I hadn’t thought of or noticed before and that I will now pay more attention to.
I am also looking into the history of the Michigan Women’s Music Festival because that has been brought up to me more than once by trans women who point to a perceived lack of advocacy for MTFs by FTMs, similar to how it was mentioned in this thread. (I might even write about it.)
A different friend had a conversation with the security guy and the bar manager a week or so later. The reasoning was pretty much some BS.
He didn’t want to do it, but thought he should because of the complaint.
He wouldn’t have said anything if a cis person hadn’t complained.
The bar is for women, who are mostly cis, so protecting them is good business. (from the manager)
*shrug*
Gosh this has been a fascinating read. I had no idea there was so much angst floating around. I’m such a ditz that I just always felt that if someone doesn’t like me they must have their reasons so why worry about it. Once in a while an angry driver has yelled at me and made signals with their middle finger. I smile and wave or blow a kiss. I don’t do that to upset them but because I really hope the rest of their day turns out better than whatever irritated them about my driving.
I guess what I am saying is that I know I can’t fix whatever haunts another person. In all fairness that is a 2 way street because the odds that they can mold me into something different are just about zero.
@ Americantransman … is that a 5 string banjo? Do you play folk or bluegrass or something else?
Deena, it is indeed a 5-string banjo. I would say I *used to* play bluegrass. I brought it out of retirement back in the summer but then things took a bad turn and it’s still sitting in the case.
Oh, jeez. My bass sits in my closet, too. In 2011, we have to bring our musical instruments out, start working less, and start playing more.
That’s a great idea! Too bad we’ll probably never be able to manage it…
Why not? If you ever head down to south Florida let me know and we’ll make it happen.
That would really fun. Deena, what do you play? Did you say somewhere and I missed it?
Oops, my reply went to the wrong place. I’m such a ditz! Read below, please.
It’s okay, Deena. I saw your reply and I know you meant to reply to the question above. There are so many comments on this post, it’s easy to get lost. I love it, though.
My little band plays folk, country, and old-time rock and roll. We could be good, but the bass player (me) kind of screws us up. The thing that I really want to be able to play and not been able to even start, let alone master, is funk – the good ol’ classic funk that came out of my generation.
That’s why I love bass, and I feel like if I can’t play funk, why bother, but I still bother and I still play my simple little riffs.
Betrayal in the trans community is the worst kind of transphobia. some FTMs/MTFs have joined in with haters in hating the other gender. I have seen this first hand, as an FTM, i have seen transwomen siding in with our haters in hating on FTMs online. They are a lot of cyber bullies patrolling around these days, just plain degrading and dismissing FTMs’ identities, , it hates so bad when you see a transwoman agreeing on this kind of opression. You would think another trans person would know whats its likely to have their identity scrutinised and dismissed, sadly its not the case.
that is not to say FTMs are angels, im not judging anyone, but i have issues with transmen who refuse to give up their lesbian identities, when they live fully as heterosexual men. At the same time lesbian transwomen arent allowed to access these spaces, that u as a man are allowed. I see this as a betrayal to both FTMs and MTFs honestly. its such a sad thing when MTFs are kicked out of these women only spaces, while FTMs turn a blind eye to this, and never question this kind of transphobia.
We all should be fighting for each other’s rights that is the only way we will progress.
I dabble a bit on the guitar and banjo. Old stuff like folk music and such. I enjoy jam sessions where I can get the audience involved with old favorites like ‘last night I had the strangest dream’ and ‘ brand new key’. I prefer the 5 string banjo simply because guitars tend to be plentiful at jam sessions. I have one male friend who loves to play ‘Lola’ or ‘walk on the wild side’. He is quite accomplished and joining in is enjoyable. Ya have to love life and live it or what’s the point? Take care.
As far as MWMF, trans women, and trans men I think one of the most telling observations has to do with the artist, Bitch and her support for the policy and her justifications for it.
It should also be noted that she has many fans within the trans-masculine spectrum and is personal friends with many trans male performers and artists. She is lately even calling herself genderqueer.
The following is an interview where she claims michFest isn’t transphobic:
http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianmusicians/a/BitchInterview_2.htm
It boils down, for her, that the fest can’t be transphobic because it has trans men who attend and perform. As far as I know, no trans man has really spoken about this (I could be very wrong here). There are plenty of trans men who attend the fest openly as trans men, who talk about the policy and how it harms trans women – and I think that’s great – but I don’t see guys really addressing the performers who either position themselves as allies (Bitch) who make some pretty busted statements, or who are or contain trans men (The Clicks and Le Tigre off the top of my head) who perform there.
The fest is such a well known public thing that gets talked about so much. If we aren’t seeing trans guys take a public stance on the policy and the artists who defend it and support it by performing there, what can we expect on a local level?
@laughriotgirl
Good points, and thanks for the link.
You can throw the Indigo Girls into the pot. Autumn Sandeen has a great post on the MWMF on Pam’s House Blend from back in March:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/15398/michigan-womyns-music-festival-lesbian-and-feminist-musical-artists-supporting-segregation
One question though- regarding this statement:
“There are plenty of trans men who attend the fest openly as trans men, who talk about the policy and how it harms trans women – and I think that’s great – but I don’t see guys really addressing the performers who either position themselves as allies (Bitch) who make some pretty busted statements, or who are or contain trans men (The Clicks and Le Tigre off the top of my head) who perform there.”
So now I’m wondering, what do FTMs have to do for their support of MTFs to be ‘enough’? It seems as though this thread started with trans men being accused of doing next-to-nothing to advocate for trans women, and now you give acknowledgment that they do, but it’s not enough because they aren’t addressing the performers at the MWMF. Those sorts of confrontations are not so easy, especially for people who are not activists. What is easy is for us to make comments and draw conclusions that people in general aren’t doing enough even though we really don’t know whether they do in fact advocate in their own way, or have very good reasons not to.
An example, up above, regarding the incident you related about the trans woman at the queer bar. I asked how you handled the incident with the trans boi running security who asked your MTF friend not to use the ladies room and you said a different friend went back and talked to him a week later. Now I could sit here and ask, why didn’t *you* do it laughriotgirl — and then I could turn around and present a conclusion to everyone here that women-who-make-comments-on-Matt-Kailey’s-blog-posts don’t do enough for the MTF community. I mean, there’s the proof, right up above. Would I be correct? Based on this little bit of information, on the surface, could I be *perceived* to be correct, just as you could be *perceived* to have not done enough in that instance? I think we have to be very careful not to make assumptions and generalizations like this without all the information.
Instead, I give you the benefit of the doubt and consider that you might have had a very good reason not to speak up to the management and to the security of that bar, and even if you didn’t, it’s not my place to make an activist or an advocate out of you, or to decide how *I* think you should act, how *I* think you should advocate for MTFs. The fact that you walked the trans woman home and consoled her is worth something, isn’t it? If FTMs are advocating for MTFs at the MWMF, as you say, then I would hope that their actions are also worth something.
sorry – long winded way to play the devil’s advocate
Well, regarding the incident above – no trans guys advocated for my friend at the club at all – and it was witnessed by quite a few patrons. *shrug*
OK so Bitch makes a statement that essentially positions herself as an ally to “trans people” based on her trans male dating history. This, right after making the statement.
“And it’s not trans people being marginalized. It’s people who were born as men.”
Resounding silence as far as I can tell from trans men. Bitch essentially erases the status of trans women while defending the policy by using trans men’s attendance. With no commentary from trans men – it’s been largely trans women and cis women allies who have been criticizing her (something she has noted publicly)
http://indigogirls.com/correspondence/2005/2005-06-13-a/interview02.html
It’s discouraging to note that during Fest, there is some level of advocacy happening around the issue, but on the MWMF forums, or in other spaces where fest and the policy gets discussed there is no (or very little) trans male presence there to advocate for trans women or to back up the trans women who are there trying to advocate for themselves.
“It seems as though this thread started with trans men being accused of doing next-to-nothing to advocate for trans women, and now you give acknowledgment that they do, but it’s not enough because they aren’t addressing the performers at the MWMF.”
I’d say wearing a yellow arm band (or whatever color it is) during fest to show support for trans women’s inclusion is just about “next-to-nothing”. Particularly when that guy isn’t doing the same in the local community.
I’d also say that the number of trans men who write/blog about being trans and male is significant. To actively look for trans men “calling out” Bitch and other performers who are trans male or self-proclaimed allies and come up empty-handed should say something.
I don’t live in the US but I would boycott the festival. I totally do not get how any self respecting trans man can go there. I’m pretty shocked to hear that the Clicks play there.
I was mistaken about The Clicks. However, The Butchies, Le Tigre, and Tribe8 have all played there.
Well, I certainly don’t agree with Bitch or the others who rationalize this b.s. policy. But this discussion keeps going back to the FTMs, which I realize was what started it all, but I’ll ask again, what about you? How have you advocated? How did you advocate for your friend in the bar? How have you advocated for trans women inclusion at the MWMF?
Again, I’ll say it’s easy to expect trans folks to do that work and stand up for each other only because they’re trans and they *should* do it, but as a woman and therefore sister to trans women, aren’t you obligated as well to do something?
(On a side note, I see that Matt has made a new post – I’m wondering if we shouldn’t let this thread end…)
You can keep the conversation going as long as you want to, as far as I’m concerned. It’s interesting. I wish I had more to add about the MWMF, but I don’t have anything to say that hasn’t already been said.
I have followed this controversy off and on over the years, but have never been too interested in an event that actively excludes trans people or discourages us from attending. And, in my opinion, an event that excludes trans women only (or trans men only) is an event that excludes trans people.
I support women-only and men-only spaces under certain circumstances, but I have a problem with “women-born-women” and “men-born-men” types of exclusions. These draw false boundaries, because, in my opinion, there’s really no way you can quantify this. Even testing chromosomes at the door will not provide an accurate measure. So I don’t understand this criteria and am disheartened to see that it continues to exist.
Anyway, keep up the dialogue as long as you want. The conversation is always important.
Well, I was active on the MWMF boards discussing the issue until it became so toxic and gut-wrenching (with a noticed lack of participation from trans men on those topics (while active in other topics) that I needed to bow out. I’m also not a lesbian, so my participation in lesbian-centered spaces is an actual invasion – my trans status doesn’t mitigate my status as a cis-appearing heterosexual woman (much).
How did I advocate for my friend? By backing her when the stuff went down with security. By being vocal at the moment and outing myself as trans in a space that was obviously not safe in an effort to show how stupid their position was.
“Again, I’ll say it’s easy to expect trans folks to do that work and stand up for each other only because they’re trans”.
You mean like the following article written by a lesbian calling trans women “casterated men” (Giant trigger warning):
http://themagazineproject.com/2010/11/transwomen-are-merely-castrated-men/
Oh wait, no trans men posted there… Here is a post from the same site at the same time from a well known internet trans-hater talking about trans men (again triggers abound):
http://themagazineproject.com/2010/11/are-trans-trenders-the-new-goth/
Now that one has a good mix of trans men and women. Funny how that happens… trans women get called “castrated men” by lesbians, in lesbian space, with the intention to question their access to lesbian spaces – crickets from trans men. While at the same time and same place trans women are in the discussion along side trans men in defending the legitimacy of trans male identities.
To return to the initial question- I think the linked posts show very well how transwomen-phobia is linked to a certain type of separatist feminism. Transmen who have been/are part of the feminist lesbian community often still share a certain separatist ideology. They justify their masculinity in terms of genderfuck or Butlerian gender critique, so that they don’t have to deal with the contradictions between their own masculine identity and their rejection of cis male people. And I’m pretty certain that most read trans women as somewhat cis male.
I have heard trans men talk about trans women in a “them” mode, “they behave/smell/look like men (yuck)”. These are mostly the same reactions that many such trans men show towards cis men.
If it is true that communities of color don’t have that type of behaviour so much, then maybe because many feminists of color were critical of feminist separatism? (I wouldn’t know as I’m white and not from the US).
@ anon – That’s an interesting point, and I don’t know the answer to that with regard to trans communities of color (although I do know that many women of color – trans or not – have felt completely dismissed by the mainstream feminist movement, at least from what they have told me), but this could enter in. So hopefully someone with experience and knowledge of this can fill us in on that.
This thread has taken interesting turns. I have to read all the information/posts that are linked to. I’m aware of this separatist ideology and the anti-male or anti-cisgender-male or anti-traditional-male stance. It’s unfortunate that trans women are somehow being ostracized because of this – that doesn’t make any sense to me. The whole things seems a little conventional and rigid to me, when I’m sure it is intended to be just the opposite.
In some cases, the oppressed become the oppressors, and that’s an unfortunate, but possibly human, response. But it doesn’t serve us. Superficial and arbitrary divisions just don’t serve us. And we don’t benefit by oppressing each other. It would seem that we would get enough of that from the outside.
How about showing your support for Trans Women by not going to the festival at all?
Wearing a yellow armband that 80% of festival goers will not even know what it stands for is a lame-ass gesture.
My transition (M2F) was not accompanied by any misogyny, misandry, racism, sexism or any other “ism.” It was strictly a matter of survival.
This is who I am, and no amount of trying to pretend otherwise worked for me. The same is true of my dear brothers who helped me along the way. I would no more call them by names than I would want or expect them to call me any names.
I suppose I’m an idealist, but whatever happened to the idea of accepting everyone for who they are? Why do we focus on details? “Is he a trans-man or a cis-man?” “Has she had her bottom surgery or not?”
It’s questions and discussions like the one here that have kept my wife and I from even attempting to contact our local GLBT community. We got spoiled, I suppose, living in Everett, WA, where the Washington Gender Alliance had been meeting every week with out missing a single week for over 700 straight weeks. We all supported each other, and my cis wife was as welcome as I was.
We spend too much time looking a bodies and not enough time looking at people.