A reader writes: “How do you feel about the current climate in lesbian communities regarding trans men? Do you think that trans men are being fetishized/exoticized at the expense of allowing trans women into the fold? What sort of arguments would you make to lesbians who insist on pursuing trans men while eschewing cis men? The flip side would be, how could one change the current climate for gay trans men in the gay male community?”
I’m tempted to stop here, while I’m still ahead (because I haven’t said anything yet), and turn this over to the readers. The biggest difficulty in answering this one is that I’ve never been in the lesbian community.
I am, however, aware of some difficulties/controversies/situations. So I am going to attempt to answer these questions, with the disclaimer that my personal experience in this area is limited. The last question, dealing with gay men, is more up my alley, so I’m going to answer that one separately, in next week’s Ask Matt.
Now, on to the first three questions. This ought to be interesting, if only to watch me get myself in trouble. Let’s break it down:
1. How do you feel about the current climate in lesbian communities regarding trans men? I think there are many different climates, depending on the community in question.
When I first started to transition, I became aware of some conflict in certain communities based on the notion that trans men were “taking” femme lesbians away from butch lesbians. I was not involved with this conflict, and this was many years ago, so I don’t know if it still exists. My response would be that every woman can decide for herself who she wants to be with, so there is no “taking” of women in any situation where a woman has the ability to exercise her free will.
A related issue had to do with women in certain lesbian communities who saw in many trans men the adoption of culturally masculine norms and behaviors that the women found distasteful. They also saw trans men as the recipients of male privilege, which is (understandably) problematic for those who have been denied privilege. I think this was part of the debate that had to do with trans men “taking” certain women. Again, I don’t know if that disagreement still exists. Readers can clue us in on that.
Recently, I have become aware of situations in which lesbians, genderqueer people who were assigned female at birth, and trans men have bonded in a sort of “anti-male” community that sees men and masculinity in general in a negative light. This, in turn, has caused the exclusion of trans women, who are, for reasons that I don’t understand, seen as “men.” I will address this further in the answer to the second question.
There are also those lesbians (and gay men) who would prefer to have nothing to do with trans people, because they don’t want to be seen as being like us in any way. This transphobia in the gay and lesbian community has a parallel, which is homophobia in the trans community. I have seen both many times.
In my own experience with lesbians in general interactions, such as with coworkers, friends, and professional contacts, I have found that the “average (non-trans) lesbian” is not any more aware of or knowledgeable about trans men or trans people than straight (non-trans) women are. So my own personal experience has been that we are as much a curiosity to non-trans lesbians (and gay men) as we are to non-trans straight women and men.
I would like to see all of this stuff – bickering, exclusions, phobias on both sides – worked out, so that we could all come together as a stronger and larger community, but I’m not sure that’s going to happen. There’s too many of us and too many different communities with varying ideas about how things should be. This is just human nature. I think divisions and disagreements within and between large and diverse communities will always continue.
2. Do you think that trans men are being fetishized/exoticized at the expense of allowing trans women into the fold? In some circles, possibly.
As I mentioned above, I am aware of an “anti-male” climate in certain communities that include lesbians, self-identified genderqueer people who were assigned female at birth, and self-identified trans men who do not completely accept the “male” or “masculine” gender label. And I have heard of trans women being left out of these communities, and even denigrated by these communities, because of their “male” history.
This is unfortunate, because, in my opinion, gender-diverse communities are all discriminated against for very similar reasons, and to reject a certain population that faces discrimination similar to one’s own doesn’t really benefit anyone – not to mention that exclusion causes pain. And if some lesbians don’t think that they are “gender diverse,” I can say that the ultimate gender expectation for women in our culture is that they sleep with and love men. Anything other than that flies in the face of cultural gender norms.
However, my bottom-line feeling about grouping together to the exclusion of others is that, while it is unfortunate and detrimental, people choose their friends and they choose their communities. People are free to associate with anyone they want, and to refuse to associate with anyone they want – at least on a personal level. If certain communities form around an “anti-male” (or “anti-female”) bias, those communities have a right to exist, as long as the legal rights of others are not being violated.
In my opinion, any social or private political community that forms around a dislike of cultural masculinity, and wants to designate certain people as bearers of that cultural masculinity (whether they are right or wrong in their designation), has a right to do that. Is it damaging? It certainly can be. But it is not illegal. And messing with the concept of freedom of association – on private property, in situations that do not make use of government funding or fall under government regulations – is entering dangerous territory.
3. What sort of arguments would you make to lesbians who insist on pursuing trans men while eschewing cis men? I personally would make no arguments in this situation. Everyone has the right to pursue who they find attractive.
There are people who would make the argument that if a woman is a lesbian, it would follow that she should not find trans men attractive because they are men and the concept of “lesbian” incorporates an attraction to women only. However, in my mind, this is a problematic argument that utilizes labels to set boundaries on attraction and advances the idea that if we claim a label for ourselves, we must adhere to the strict guidelines implied by that label.
The argument would continue that if a lesbian finds a trans man attractive, then she doesn’t really see him as a man, and therefore he should not want to be with her because she is not seeing him as his true self. Again, this is a problematic argument because no one but she knows how she sees him, and no one but he knows whether or not it’s a problem.
I don’t think these arguments hold up, and I would not make them. I would never tell anyone who they should or shouldn’t find attractive or who they should or shouldn’t be with based on their personal labels or identities. So I have no arguments in this case.
And that is my take. For someone with limited experience, I sure had a lot to say. I’ll tackle that last question, about gay men and gay trans men, next week.
Now, let’s hear from some men and women with direct experience in these situations. Readers – you have the floor!
I’ve experienced near-harassment from lesbians when my wife and I are out and about, for “taking” or “converting” her. She still identifies fully as lesbian, and (as far as I know) she sees me as male.
I’d make this longer, but it’s too early and I’m off to work
I believe that for any transperson , the lesbian community and the trans community should unite and understand each other . It seems to me the LGBTTIQ is not yet unified as they should be , a suggestion if you know or meet a transperson try to get to know them they have feelings like everyone else. A cis woman and a transwoman , are still women , cis males and transmen are men ! . I have been lucky to be inbraced in the lesbian community where I live , I am a transwoman , and speak from some experience.
Just to add some background: the similar phenomena exist in the EU. First the lesbian community hated all transpeople (until about 1990), then trans men gradually became hip, then there was the “transmen steal femmes” discussion, then the genderqueer/trans*/lesbian community that doesn’t include trans women but thinks “all trans guys are sexy”.
I have some lesbian friends, so I saw all this but never understood it, cause I only date men.
That’s interesting. So you are aware of this as well in the EU. I hope that we get some more thoughts and perspectives on this. Thanks for sharing that.
Don’t forget the lesbians who criticize trans men (or even claim that we don’t truly exist because we’re not “real men” and so refer to us as women) for transitioning, which they see as misogyny and sustaining patriarchy. Views that are similar to those of Janice Raymond are still alive and well with some lesbians, unfortunately.
Just one word (actually, one name): dirtywhiteboi
Yeah, as much as possible, I try to stay away from the negativity. It’s easy to find out there, but better to ignore for your own sanity.
To me, anything which denies our identities, whether it’s lesbians somehow still assuming trans men aren’t men, or viewing trans women as still men, is transphobia pure and simple. No, it’s not against “the law” because, for the most part, transphobia isn’t against the law (how many instances has anyone ever been prosecuted, fined or imprisoned for it… maybe 2 or 3 times?)
I’ve had a lesbian I know who was into a very male looking trans man actually tell me, “well, he still has a pussy”… in other words, it’s only the genitals which count.
Sorry, but so much of the queer community is built on varying degrees of transmisogyny and is in serious denial of many of its assumptions.
And yes, there is homophobia in the trans community and it sucks, but I don’t think it’s analogous to transphobia in the LGB community because the communities are in no way equal. Moreover, that homophobia won’t result in laws being passed which protect trans people but don’t protect gay people, as the repeal of DADT just did.
I agree with you that LGB transphobia and trans homophobia are not completely analogous for the reason you say – the trans community doesn’t have as much power (although there are those in the trans community who would say that we would have more power than the LGB community if we were not affiliated with them).
It’s unfortunate that assumptions are still based on genitalia, and the LGB community should be in a position to be hyper-aware of this, because much of the discrimination against them has to do with having the “wrong” genitalia (two vaginas don’t go together, two penises don’t go together, it’s against nature’s/god’s plan, etc.). But, alas, many are not.
Your points are well taken. Thanks for reading and commenting.
“I used to be so in love with you until I found out you were a GUY!”
“Well, I think you are pretty hot looking…. for a freak”
These are just a couple of the ones that really stick in my mind.
Dealing with the lesbian community where I am is very difficult as a ts-girl.
Sure, its nice to think that they might ‘get it’ because we have all felt the sting of the discrimination fairy, but I think that’s about the same as thinking that the hetero cis community would accept gay marriage because they too have felt the gift of love in their lives and wish to let others share in its joy.
There is a general assumption of character for the ts community. Be it the reasons we do the things we do, or how we are or indeed, what we are.
I don’t think this ever works in our favor.
Until people actually take a chance and get to know us, we are assumed to be like any of the wild stories they hear.
Perverts, weirdos and insane.
For some people it really is all about the genitalia.
Many a girl has discussed lesbian relationships with me only to remark “well, Id love to be with a woman, but what can I say, I just love the penis”
I think this can also be semi-seen in some relationships that break down due to transition .. the person is the same, the only change is physical and yet the love is lost.
But – having said all this, I personally believe that there can be something said about these misgivings.
I am certainly not condemning any of these reactions – we are attracted to what we are attracted to.
Whether your girlfriend is dumping you because you are ts or because you don’t like the same music – it hardly makes much of a difference, except that one of these is generally a much more sensitive issue for us.
I think that picking the right community of people is one of the best steps to allow for this.
If you are in a closed off community who is only ever going to see you as what you once were, then you need to find and associate with those who will understand.
If you are looking for a partner to spend your life with, they should surely be open minded enough to hear your story.
I cant think of anyone who actively seeks out a partner who is close minded.
So, I guess – pick your battles?
and wear really good armour?
just my thoughts.
Picking the right community – that’s really a good point and kind of the bottom line, really. Because there are so many different communities out there, with different thoughts and opinions and knowledge bases.
The lesbians and gay men that I know really well – that I count as my friends – are not overly concerned (or concerned at all) about my history, and have zero concern about my genitalia. Some of them may not know a lot about trans people or trans experience in general. Some of them know a lot. All of them are basically non-transphobic – they don’t exclude trans men or trans women, and they will fight for our inclusion. If they did exclude us, they would not be my friends. But most of them are also pretty involved in the overall LGBT activist movement.
Dating is another matter. I have definitely been rejected by potential dates. None have been as cruel as those who made the first two comments that you wrote. Basically, what I hear is “I really like you. But I really like penises.” It’s okay – so do I. While I probably wouldn’t reject someone for that reason, I have a different life experience than most (non-trans) gay guys do, so I have a different way of looking at things.
I don’t consider this shallow – to not want to date someone because of that person’s body type. Physical and/or sexual attraction can be tremendously important in a dating/romantic relationship. People – trans and non-trans – get rejected for all kinds of reasons, and some of them are physical.
So I think it’s important to differentiate between someone who doesn’t want to date me because I’m trans and someone who hates me because I’m trans (because of my trans body or my trans experience). There’s a huge difference. Many of my gay friends would not date me. That’s okay. I wouldn’t date many of them, either. That doesn’t mean I don’t like them or that I’m homophobic. There’s a lot that goes into attraction on a dating, romantic, or even sexual level.
Okay, I’m writing my post for next Monday here, so I have to stop. But I really like what you said: Pick your battles and wear really good armor. And pick your community. There are lots of them out there.
I think there might be different storys here. Trans men rarely get the “freak” status when rejected. It makes a difference if someone says: I’m very attracted to you, but I just can’t get over my desire for penis/vagina.
Or: I don’t date you cause you’re a freak.
Generally, it makes a difference if someone says:I miss penis/vagina, or if someone says: You are not a real man/women.
The first is an information about the speaker, the second a judgment about the trans person.
And that is very true. The “freak” thing is unacceptable, as is invalidating someone’s identity by saying “I found out you were a guy.”
Not being interested in someone because that person is not what you want physically is simply a matter of personal attraction. The remarks made to Deanna were cruel and unnecessary, and the speaker(s) knew that the remarks were wrong. They were intended to hurt.
So you are right, those are two very different things.
I have spent some time thinking about the question of fetishizing ts folk particularly in regard to my own sexuality. I identify as bisexual, I identified as pan for a minute and I’m not saying I would never date someone genderneutral but experience has shown me that I prefer the binaries as it were. well except in the case of some awesome butches but I digress.
I am dating a transman, two of my exes transitioned after dating me, so something beyond the physical is at work here I think. I don’t know. I ask myself – am I a tranny chaser? Maybe? is it wrong? no- I don’t think so. We are attracted to those we are attracted to. I am reminded of the lesbian feminist cooperative restaurant I worked in in the 80′s. I don’t want to process this stuff to death. I think this is why I tend to be attracted to masculinity in general whatever the genitalia attached doesn’t seem to matter to me. I know two things about dating in terms of gender: and I’m probably going to get flamed on this but as a woman who has dated women, I’m gonna say it anyway: we are too effing complicated. I find it is so much easier to talk to men, date men and on the whole be sexual with men. True, not all men can handle my frankness and openess but I am more likely to get what I want with men than I am with women. Oh crap maybe it’s just me. Does it count that I find Billy Castro totally hot but Buck Angel doesn’t really do it for me? Or that I’d like to be in a Britney Spears/ Justin Timberlake sandwich? Maybe the only thing I know for sure is that what makes me hot is largely all in my head. I try not to judge it, in fact I ceased judging it altogether. I am fortunate enough to have a sex life even if it is largely in my head. In the meantime I have my hitachi magic wand which so far remains genderless, a Billy Castro dvd, and a really handsome boyfriend that I may actually have sex with someday.
As far as inclusion/exclusion goes; the lgbt community is part of the world and made up of humans last I checked. Being a “queer” doesn’t make one exempt to prejudice just as being of color doesn’t make one exempt from espousing racist ideology not does being a woman preclude misogyny. As a woman who presents “femme” and has children, certain assumptions are made about me all the time and I find it much more uncomfortable than I did when the skinhead boys would spit and call me “dyke.”
If I go into the local gay club with my boyfriend, we get “the stink eye.” Which I think is funny because the older I get the more out of wack my gaydar gets. I try to take the Mahayana Buddhist philosphy here – I check my assumptions, open my mind, change myself and I change the world.
I think there are some people who prefer trans people because of our varied experiences. That doesn’t mean that every trans person will be attractive to someone who prefers trans people, but I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. A lot of people don’t agree with me on this one, but a lot of people don’t agree with me on lots of stuff. If you’re happy and he’s happy, that’s all that matters.
Genitalia, schmenitalia. If that’s what the attraction is, then count me out. My good friend Michelle Hall explained it to me when I began my transition: “Sex is what’s between your legs; gender is what’s between your ears.”
Or, as my wife once told me, “I love YOU, not whatever vehicle you’re riding around in.” And isn’t that, ultimately, the basis of a lasting relationship? Loving the person for WHO rather than WHAT they are?
I understand the need for GLBT-and-however-many letters-you-want-to-add-on-to-it communities, just as I understand Black communities, Puerto Rican, Italian, Irish, or whatever communities. Whether it’s common heritage, common interest, or just common persecution, it’s great to be with others who understand. But to deny person-hood to someone (and that’s basically what trans-phobia does) based on their genitalia…isn’t that a bit like saying, “Sorry, you can’t be part of the Black community because your skin is too light,” or “How can you be Irish? You don’t have red hair”?
That kind of thinking preserves the stereotypes we’re all struggling to overcome.
My wife is a woman. I am a woman. Does that make us lesbians? I don’t think so–we don’t have cats. We’ve both had sex with men and women. Are we bisexual? Why do we even need labels at all? Our good friend Shannon explained it quite simply when she told my wife, “It’s really very simple: you’re a Robynsexual.” That is her orientation: towards me. Just as mine us towards her, and would still be if she woke up tomorrow morning with a penis.
We need to look beyond the body and at the mind and soul. That’s what matters, that’s what counts. I don’t look at people first as lesbian, straight, gay or bi. We’re all people…although I still wonder why transgendered folks are lumped in with gays and lesbians. After all, it’s not an orientation, is it?
Okay, that’s the best line of the week: “I love you, not whatever vehicle you’re riding around in.”
I think if people were given permission to be attracted to whoever they are attracted to, without having to defend it or feel like it has to be within a certain box, people would enjoy their sexual and romantic lives much more.
Trans isn’t an orientation, but this is a post I wrote a while back on why I think the T belongs with LGB: Does the T Belong with LGB?
Hey there, interesting discussion. Jacky here, from Montreal. I’m a trans guy who transitioned after years of being a part of a dyke circle in which trans people of all sorts (MTF, FTM, GQ, gender unspecified, genderfuckers) were included and cherished as community members. I found this circle through a women-centered BDSM group when I was living as a bi woman. It is this group that allowed me to explore my gender. They supported me when I started performing as a drag king and occasionally going to play parties in drag. Then they supported me when I realised drag wasn’t enough. Since I “grew up” on this particular dyke community, I couldn’t imagine being expulsed from it when I decided to live as a genderqueer male. I feel very much at home there.
When I hear about other locations that include trans guys and not trans women, that throws me for a loop. I can’t imagine it at all. But I believe it because, what the heck, we live in a fucked up world.
I wish that I were in an ideal world where I could feel comfortable in mixed spaces that included cis men as well. Because bottom line, I don’t like excluding people. But as it stands, I don’t feel like I could circulate topless (I’m non-op) in a pansexual space and feel comfortable the way I do with this circle that I’m in. Eventually, I would like to enter different spaces but for now I’m happy where I am. Next step: gay male leather bars in company of other leather trans guys that I know.
I should specify that, in the general dyke community (not necessarily BDSM) in Montreal, I never really fit in, even as a bi woman. First of all, I was neither butch nor femme so people didn’t know what to do with me. Secondly, it’s very “cliquey” here. People stand around at the bar in their little groups and look at new comers in “that” way that makes you feel like you’re an invader. So I doubt that I would fit there now, even if I wanted to.
Finally, as for some trans guys not being considered “real guys” by lesbians…yeah, that’s an issue. In the example I gave above, people are accepted as they are. But I can see a case of letting trans guys in because they’re not really considered guys as problematic.
Matt said: “I think there are some people who prefer trans people because of our varied experiences. That doesn’t mean that every trans person will be attractive to someone who prefers trans people, but I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. ”
I actually agree with you 100%. There is a distinction to be made between a preference and a fetish. I have friends who are drawn to trans people who are genderqueer, specifically, because they enjoy the different kinds of energies we have. They are not necessarily closed to other people and they’re not all fetish-ey about it either. Also, they are not necessarily drawn to ALL people like that. Just that they people they are drawn to often wind up being genderqueer or gender ambiguous. I don’t see this as much different than people who have a preference for women or men.
Fetishising is another thing and I think that in any case where someone is drawn to someone JUST BECAUSE they are trans, GQ or anything else for that matter, it can be a dehumanizing experience for the object of attraction. I haven’t really encountered that so far…
I don’t have a problem when someone expresses attraction to me and that part of that attraction is based in my gender expressions, as long as there is attraction to all the other stuff about me too.
There’s a definite difference between preference and fetish – and a fine line. Which, of course, allows me to reference an old post of mine: Preference or Fetish: The Very Fine Line. I love it when I get to do that!
Interesting post, and interesting comments. Especially the parts about how some lesbians see transmen.
I cite Matt: “There are people who would make the argument that if a woman is a lesbian, it would follow that she should not find trans men attractive because they are men and the concept of “lesbian” incorporates an attraction to women only. ” /…/ “The argument would continue that if a lesbian finds a trans man attractive, then she doesn’t really see him as a man, and therefore he should not want to be with her because she is not seeing him as his true self.”
And Gina:”I’ve had a lesbian I know who was into a very male looking trans man actually tell me, “well, he still has a pussy”…”
This is important, I think. Sexual attraction is based on body and personality, and things such as how we walk and dress. A transmasculine body is still not a totally male body. That’s the sad fact. A lesbian “should” not be attracted to transmen because transmen are men, but their bodies aren’t totally male, so even though she shouldn’t, she can.
There’s another reason why some women might be attracted to transmen but not to cis men. Trans men have female experience. A woman who is attracted to masculinity but feels threatened by men or dislikes men, might feel less threatened by a transman because he shares the experience of being seen as the weaker sex, and as prey. She might think him less likely to push her into the subservient role. I understand these women, because I also felt threatened by men when I presented as female. If a woman sees me as less male because I have lived in the female role, I wouldn’t take offense as long as she still accepts my male identity. If a man sees me as less male for the same reason, I would take offense. Because that would mean something different.
That’s an interesting phenomenon – to look at how we (just as people, not even necessarily as trans people) respond to the way we are viewed depending not on what the view is, but on who is doing the viewing, because it does mean something different.
plastbaronen: I agree with you there is a lot of attraction from lesbians towards trans men based on: “socialized as (some kind) of woman, therefore I can be attracted to you.” But there are some real problems with this view as I see it. Switching it for a second towards trans women, it now becomes “socialized as (some kind) of man” and that’s one of the prime reasons (or maybe excuses) why trans women are excluded from many queer women’s circles. It’s a kind of social determinism which supposedly brands you forever and makes a lot of assumptions that the way a trans person filters that socialization is the same as how non trans people are shaped by it. To take it to a step further the way a lot of second wave feminists did, “trans women are still rapists and sexual predators.”
I don’t want to take the focus away from trans men, but just to understand that there are very different criteria for trans men and how their experience is viewed from the way trans women are and I think it has more to do with cis-people’s issues than ours.