A non-trans lesbian acquaintance recently asked, “Why are trans people so transient in the LGBT community?”
She runs a program at an LGBT center, and she said that trans participants seem to come and go in her program as well as in other programs that the center provides. She wondered if this kind of off-again, on-again participation was unique to the trans community, because she was not seeing the same kind of in-and-out stuff with gay and lesbian participants.
I’m not sure what all of the programs are that are offered at this particular organization, but I would say that her observation might be correct. And if it is, I will venture a guess as to some of the reasons why:
> Not all trans people identify with the LGBT community. However, those who don’t may seek out or access a particular program or service at a center or other organization that has a “T” at the end of its letter list. Because these people are not grounded in this community, they may access the program, get what they need, and then move on. They won’t stay to “socialize” or to look for other resources there, because they don’t see it as their community.
This might not be the fault of the center or the program at all. It is simply a case of a person not having an ongoing relationship with a particular community. In this case, there’s nothing to be done or changed. It’s still important to have trans resources available if you are an organization with a “T” in your letter list.
> Not all community resources that have “T” in their letter list are trans friendly or, for that matter, trans knowledgeable at all. The “T” is there for funding purposes, for the appearance of inclusivity, or because everyone else is doing it. But when trans people come in to actually access the services, no one really knows what to do with us. Responses can range from blank stares to outright hostility.
Believe it or not, we’re pretty aware, and we can kinda sense this. So we might show up for something and then not return because we see that “LGBT” really means “LGB.” It might happen right away (with the outright hostility) or over time as we gradually see that our needs are not being addressed by the program.
We might return at a later time to try again, particularly if there are not any other programs in the area that even come close to providing something for us. But if we see that nothing has changed, we vanish once again.
> We also get tired of educating others about trans issues, especially when we are trying to access a program or service through an “LGBT” organization. If you put yourself out there as an “LGBT” program or service, you damn well better know what the “T” means and what services we might need.
In my opinion, all non-trans staff who work at “LGBT” centers and other organizations should have mandatory training on trans issues as part of their new-employee orientation, or such training should be offered a couple of times a year and all staff should be required to attend – and this includes volunteers. An organization’s volunteer training should have a specific section on trans issues.
If you’re not willing to do this, drop the “T” from your name. I’m serious. I think many of us would much prefer that an organization be honest and say “We are an LGB center” than to stick the “T” on there for appearances and then have no T programming or knowledge. You might be accused of exclusion, but you will be anyway if the “T” is just there for the hell of it. Better to be honest up front than to promise what you can’t or won’t deliver.
> In some cases, the organization itself might be extremely trans friendly and knowledgeable, but the other participants in the program or group might not be. For example, a youth group, a seniors social group, a caretaker support group, an AA group, or even a computer class or book discussion group might be held at an LGBT center, and the LGB participants in the group might not be trans friendly. They might be openly hostile, uncomfortable, or make jokes about trans people.
If you are an organization that offers such groups, it’s important to let the participants know that the group is for any member of the LGBT community and that discriminatory remarks about sexual orientation or gender identity and expression are not tolerated. Perhaps participants can sign a form upon joining the group that clearly outlines this. If they have a problem, they can decline to participate.
> Trans people sometimes are transient. Because of the difficulty of getting employment and housing, even in those locations that have an inclusive ENDA and public accommodations laws, we might not always have transportation, money for program fees, or even the “right” clothing to wear to certain events.
We might come to a program when we can get there and be absent for a period of time when we cannot. We might be embarrassed to admit that we can’t afford the fees that are charged. We might not be able to bring snacks to share when it’s our turn.
There are a lot of reasons why some trans people might not be able to fully participate in a program, even if we are obviously welcomed and included. If you run a program and notice spotty participation by a certain person, trans or not, it might be helpful to talk to that person in private and ask if there is anything you can do to help them engage fully with the program.
These are just some of the reasons why trans people might appear to be transient at LGBT centers and organizations. I’m sure that readers can come up with more, or can provide examples of some of those already listed – so take it away, folks!
(I need more Ask Matt Monday questions – I know you’ve got ‘em. Click on the Ask Matt tab above to send your question. And thanks for reading and commenting!)
This morning I got an email that my local LGBT center is closing. Due to school schedule, I have not been able to attend the bi-weekly trans group, and was one week away from finally getting that opportunity (as my semester ends). The center’s online events calendar was the only place I’ve ever seen the trans group advertise (even after many Google searches), and I have no idea how to contact them now. (I’m on the verge of tears at this fact, honestly.)
So… one recommendation would be to have these programs available to a wider diversity of schedule options. If they’re only meeting Wednesday nights, they’ll only get people who are free on Wednesday nights.
Another recommendation for support groups: put up a website and update it regularly! I don’t care how trolled you are, if you’re successfully avoiding the haters, you’re successfully avoiding the people in need too.
It has been my experience that many LGBT places really are LBG but somewhere along the line, “LGBT” became more a Name for the community instead of each initial relating to a certain group with different needs.
LiVia
I live in a major city (major for LGB people) and the local center has one group that is only one Friday a month for transguys, yet the center is known as a LGBT center.
Personally I don’t want to associate with the LGB community. We have nothing in common (speaking for myself as I ID as het) and the only time I’ve personally seen blatant bigotry was from a non trans gay man at that center (and it was on TDOR).
For once, I am a man of few words. AMEN!!!!!!!! Matt, you hit just about every reason I have for being transient with my LGBT community, what little of it I can find.
I agree with all your points, Matt. I can add some more:
I know trans groups that don’t meet in LGT centers, and people are pretty transient there, too. This might have two reasons.
Coming out as trans is a huge thing, and I mean *huge*. Much more more than coming out as LGBT. So I think it’s pretty common that people panic and try to stop being trans. This might happen several times over a period of months or years.
Another point is that after transitioning, many people go stealth and just vanish, because that’s what they want. By coming to a trans group at a public place they would be outed. It’s pretty common that people stay in trans groups during their transition and then leave never to be seen again. I might actually be a good sign. They only come back if they have problems.
My life got a lot better after I gave up on my local LGB”T” group. The area that I’m in has a lot of community groups, but no LGBT centers aside from the student centers at the universities/community colleges. I don’t know that I’ve ever come across an allegedly LGBT group of any kind–political, support, or social–that consistently got it right. It’s actually more painful since (at least in theory) it’s supposed to be a safe space where I can relax and be myself, but the people in the groups are often a lot less concerned with being respectful and appropriate than your average straight non-trans person on the street. Many LGB people I’ve met are openly contemptuous or hostile.
Agree with all those. Would also add:
(1) While gays and lesbians tend to come out “once,” trans people can shift between wanting to be stealth & not – or having that ability. Straight trans people often avoid LGBT community like the plague during stealth mode, whereas stealth trans gays and lesbians can be uncomfortable with the rampant transphobia in LGBT communities.
(2) Trans people burn out on transition. It’s time-consuming, financially draining, medically intensive for some, and exhausting playing trans 101 educator in circles of family, friends, work/school. After spending “x” amount of time being involved in trans community or LGBT community more broadly, a lot of people want a breather and time OFF from “doing trans stuff.” This is true even if you don’t have to play trans 101 educator (though all the moreso if you do). Despite its challenges, being GLB lacks the same intensity and desire for space from it all.
(3) Gender identity isn’t sexual orientation. GLB communities often work because people want to meet others to date, sleep with, and/or have relationships with. That’s what keeps a lot of GLB coming back – the potential to meet someone to connect with. Being trans is independent of that.
(4) Trans people pass less well in LGBT spaces. This is especially true for trans men, who can be confused for Ls (and Bs). Some trans people are very uncomfortable with that.
(5) Assumptions in LGBT community that all seemingly male presenting or female presenting people have the same or similar background as the standard expective narrative of gays or lesbians and programming emphasis often being placed on connecting with or sharing those experiences. It alienates the Ts, even when reminders about being respectful of Ts are given more broadly. (Note: It often alienates the Bs, too).
(6) Poor websites/online presence or presentation – If an LGBT centric organization has nothing listed for T or has “T section to follow” place holder or out of date terminology or resources, it’s an indication of the organization’s mission as being to serve only GLB.
this:
“(4) Trans people pass less well in LGBT spaces. This is especially true for trans men, who can be confused for Ls (and Bs). Some trans people are very uncomfortable with that.”
Especially when said trans person is gay instead of straight/pan/bi and comes in with a “straight” past. It can be a huge pain in the ass when people assume that a trans guys *must* be into women/lesbians and gets hit on constantly. Also when people make assumptions about a common lesbian past/socialisation, especially if said trans guy has always hung out with (gay) men, and is not into female socialized groups at all. If said trans guy disappoints expectations that are projected on him, it can turn into “bullied by female socialised people all over again”, an exprience that some trans guys have had many times before.
I am fortunate to live in a fairly trans-friendly community. There is a transman who is our LGBT Center’s facilities manager and a few transmen and transwomen who regularly volunteer and run trans support and discussion groups. We have a twice monthly FTMI group meetings, weekly trans coming out group and trans discussion groups for adults and youth.
I think another reason transpeople come to things and then disappear is because it used to be that a transperson was expected to up and move away from their homes and enter new communities upon full transition. They were also made to be “heterosexual” as well. So the lesbian and gay transpeople had to stay in the sexual orientation closet along with the trans closet – be straight and stealth. The Harry Benjamin Standards of Care demanded this.
Now, things are changing and more trans peopld are realizing that we DO belong to the LGB community because our issues overlap. We have some of us transpeople here in our community who are doing this – the educating of groups to coalition with. I think with time we will see more of us out there in the LGBT community as well as the progressive community.
My reason for being more transient is sometimes ageism (I’m seventeen, so there’s a lot of that) and sometimes it’s just that I get distracted. I’m pretty busy, have school, job, and friends to hang out with, sometimes it’s just hard to keep appointments at certain times.
Ageism is quite a big problem; I still remember the time when in a support group* an older transman told me I could not identify as FtM because I was “too young” and pre-everything and that it was “disrespectful” to people who were “being serious” about it (aka: getting hormones and having surgery).
Nevermind the fact that A)I already passed 60% of the time (with strangers) because I’m a full-time “crossdresser” B)I had been beaten, discriminated, harassed etc because of my looks and my inclinations (expecially when I was more androgynous).
Young people who get told things like that are not likely to trust older LGBT people.
*(an online one, since we don’t really have LGBT support groups here :/)
These are all really good points. Thank you all for the additions. I hope those who run “LGBT” programs get a chance to read this.
Sad but true that in some LGBT organizations the “T” is silent – overlooked, disregarded, and even reviled sometimes. I have two friends (trans men) who work for major LGBT organizations (I won’t mention the companies by name) and both have persistent problems trying to represent the trans community and project a trans voice in these places.
One recently shared that trans-related definitions were just published at his job and the trans employees (or “tokens” as he called them) were not even consulted – resulting in incorrect definitions that will further confuse the uninformed. It’s become so frustrating that both of these friends are looking for work elsewhere. This is a shame because we need more public representation if our voices will be heard.
As for transient trans people, I’m sure there are many reasons. In my case, I (and others I know) moved on from the local LGBT center’s trans-masculine group after we felt we had “graduated”. That is, we went there when we were questioning ourselves and wanting to hear the voices of others like us, but we now have what we came for and staying there became repetitive. We still see each other socially (though not as often as I’d like), but we’ve moved on from the initial purpose for our meeting in the first place.
Matt, I also hope the right people read our comments here.
Another thing I thought of of why transpeople may leave LGBT space to live their lives. Even though we generally have a pretty good group of active transpeople here, I sometimes see what I call “marginalized behavior”. I see this in groups of oppressed people – people of color, disabled, and LGBT. This behavior entails people bashing each other over petty stuff like a bunch of kids. This behavior chases people away as well. Here, recently, there was a public fight between some folks over a contest that was to be held. Some pretty nasty stuff was being posted on our local e-mail list as people ripped into each other. I was glad to not have been involved in this as I really hate that kind of behavior.
As an older person, I see that this behavior is very damaging to our community – and the other communities of oppressed people – we are busy fighting each other instead of the people who are activly oppressing all of us. The only way we all will gain our rights for all of us is to quit this behavior and stand together and agree to disagree on some things but work together with what we agree on.
Another thing I’d like to see is a group for people who are actually in transition and post transitional folks who still need help in actually living as the new gender. After all, we need to learn new socialization from what we all grew up in the birth gender.
One reason I never felt comfortable in LGB spaces is because people assumed I was L. There is never a “just” T space, it is always preceded by LGB, which takes priority as well.
The other major reason is that, even in Trans spaces, I never felt like I belonged in the trans community, mostly because I am neutrois – a non-binary trans identity. There is little information on non-binary identities, and it was a fluke that I discovered it. Some of my experiences are very different from say an FTM, so I felt like I wasn’t trans enough to be transgender. When I discovered that transgender actually includes ME, I finally sought out these spaces, only to find very few answers.
Would be nice to see lgb people actually fight for trans rights. Send we are always asked to support lgb causes. Either we work together or I think is time for trans people such as myself to stop fighting for lgb rights altogether. Or maybe even taking the t out of lgbt for good
“Mike
My reason for being more transient is sometimes ageism (I’m seventeen, so there’s a lot of that) and sometimes it’s just that I get distracted. I’m pretty busy, have school, job, and friends to hang out with, sometimes it’s just hard to keep appointments at certain times.”
This is something I completely agree with, being a younger member of the LGBT community myself who has been prejudiced against due to my age.
There is a high concentration of trans individuals in my area (apparently it is more common to identify as trans than to have AIDS..) and so it something understood (but not necessarily excepted) by most of the community.
There isn’t enough support or even understanding from the local LGBT centres towards those who are just ‘coming out’ as trans, especially those who are younger. I have had to pull more than a few strings to in order to be taken seriously by a local LGBT support centre as a member who is under 18.
However, this is a problem faced by all aspects of the LGBT community as many people can’t seem to face the fact that younger members of any community can make up their own mind about their sexuality/gender orientation.
The problem with some support groups is that not ALL LGBT people are accepting of ALL kinds of LGBT. And not just that…
Example: In an online support group for trans people where I still post, there have been a lot of occurrence of homophobic posts (expecially about “feminine” men), insults toward No-HRT No-OP people (they often got called “transvestite” in a derogatory way), discrimination towards non-hetero transpeople, hateful comments towards transpeople who were married and had kids before transitioning, etc
Thanks for the great discussion. As some mentioned, there is homophobia in the trans community, and I have experienced it myself. And there is definitely transphobia in the LGB community (which I have also experienced). I wish we could get rid of both.
It’s also interesting that several young people commented on their rejection by and/or alienation from trans groups. I have heard this recently myself from young people in my area. If we all think back to when we first realized our gender, I think most of us will find that it was pretty early in life. Non-trans people generally (not always) have a solid gender identity at a young age. Why should trans people be any different?
I think there is ageism that runs both ways in the trans community. I have heard of young people being discriminated against by older, sometimes more “traditional,” trans guys (I don’t know if this is similar for trans women, and would be interested to hear about this), and I have also heard of younger guys dismissing older guys because we are “old” and don’t understand.
I think both groups have things to teach each other. The older guys have wisdom for the younger guys and it is helpful when we make that available. The younger guys have experiences in a world that we older guys did not grow up in. We have knowledge to share with each other and we should learn from each other.
“I think both groups have things to teach each other. The older guys have wisdom for the younger guys and it is helpful when we make that available. The younger guys have experiences in a world that we older guys did not grow up in. We have knowledge to share with each other and we should learn from each other.”
I agree, but as always it seems that the younger people think they know everything and refuse to listen to those of us who have been around for awhile longer.
(at least it’s been my experience thus far in the T community) and it is easier to walk away.
I’ve met some ignorant older folks too so it goes both ways.
“but as always it seems that the younger people think they know everything and refuse to listen to those of us who have been around for awhile longer.”
In my experience, the opposite is often true.
In my experience, older transpeople often think they know everything better and that they are allowed to choose what is right for younger transpeople, or that their choiches are “more valid” because a younger transperson is “less reliable” and “might change his/her/* mind”.
At least, this is what I experienced as a young-ish transperson.
Tommy I don’t know if it will matter to you, but the ageism is not exclusive to the lgbt community. We older folks tend to think we know it all and can get outright ignorant (hence my comment above of, “I’ve met some ignorant older folks too so it goes both ways.”) if a younger person thinks they know it all as well.
I just wish all of us in the T community could get together to become one big powerful voice like the lgb community has done so we could change things in a positive manner rather than all of the in-fighting, accusations of others not being “trans enough” or “old enough” or whatever the excuses are.
Man what a vision that could be! It only takes one voice to change one mind.
holy shit this article hit the nail on the coffin on my feelings about lgbt centers. like i hardly go to the one thats in my city unless they’re holding gender identity night, because i honestly can’t relate to the lgb community at all. i’m a bisexual, but i share very little interests with the lgb community as a whole and i just feel completely alienated and i don’t see us having anything in common ever.
and even with the few trans people i do know that frequently go to these centers, i still don’t identify with them.
Anne, we NEED to come together as an LGBT community!!! IT MEANS OUR VERY LIVES! Lesbians and Gays experience TRANSphobia – look at the stereotypes: Gay men are FEMININE and Lesbians are all MASCULINE – or want to be men.
Transpeople get HOMOphobia. Transwomen are presumed to be really Gay men – faggots. transmen are really dykes.
Our two oppressions are so intertwined that we can’t undo it. Because of this, we are pegged as dykes or Gay men at LGBT centers. When the Right Wing politicians and religious “leaders” bash us, they bash us for being – in their eyes – GAY.
People in the general population – straight folks – still have no concept of us as Transpeople. People are only seeing alot of the LGB in the last 15 to 20 years and look how they are still being treated. Look at how the LG community has treated the Bisexual community up until very recently when the LGBT acronym was made up. People have no idea about who we are and that is the case in both the straight and LGB communities. We have alot of work cut out for us. It is imperative that we come together and fight together so we can all survive this transphobic, homophobic, racist, ableist world.
Through our work together, we can get the word out in public and, hopefully, a positive word, and reach those of us who don’t even know about who we are. I had to wait and suffer for 58 years before I realized who I was and that it was OK and that there were lots of others like myself. Many LGBs go through this very thing themselves.
Mike and Tommy, I hear you about the agism. I sometimes feel like an old fart in our mainly young groups here! LOL! We have much to learn from each other. Here, we also have a group just for 18 and under Trans folks.
Yes! And if you’re like me, where both my sexual orientation and my gender are queer, how the hell am I supposed to slice and dice myself into separate letters? I’m not in a “straight” relationship when I’m with one gender and I’m not in a “gay” relationship when I’m with another gender, because my own gender frustrates the entire binary.