In Part 1, we discussed support group basics. In Part 2, we discussed considerations for facilitators. Now, in Part 3, we will discuss considerations for attendees, partly in response to a recent Ask Matt letter in which a reader writes: “A few months ago, I started going to a trans-masculine support-and-discussion group as a way to make some connections and try to meet other guys in my area.
“For the most part, these meetings are fantastic. However, there’s one person who comes who’s been frustrating me more and more every week and there are times when I want to take a break from going because of how he acts. I wonder if other people feel as frustrated by him as I do, but I don’t know how to approach the situation and talk to anyone else about it without sounding like a gossipy jerk.
“This man often dominates conversations and loves to make really general statements about all sorts of things: aspects that were true of his history and transition that aren’t true for everyone else, huge blanket statements about how men are vs. how women are, that sort of thing. He also will interrupt other people in really rude ways.
“He’s a good bit older than the other members of the group, and I have a huge amount of respect for him as an elder member of the community, but I also want to feel comfortable there and don’t want new people to hesitate to come back (one person he interrupted in a rude way has already not come back).
“If it was just my own frustration, that would be one thing, but I get the sense that some other people in this group also feel frustrated with his behavior, but nothing really happens. One moderator will occasionally break in and redirect discussion back to an original topic or call him out on his generalizations, but his behavior hasn’t changed. I don’t know him well enough to feel anywhere near comfortable discussing this with him. Do you have any thoughts?”
One of the biggest complaints that I hear about group attendees is that they are conversation hogs – that they attempt to monopolize the entire group with their problems, issues, and even knowledge.
In this situation, it is really the facilitator’s responsibility to redirect the discussion, and you say that he has tried. It’s not an easy thing to do, and obviously it’s not working. One of the problems could be, as you say, that the guy is older and has been transitioned for a long time. If everyone else in the group, including the facilitator, is younger and newer to transition, it could be intimidating to confront an “elder” – especially one who is so sure that he is right and so rude about his manner of interacting.
But we elders don’t know everything. And being an elder does not give us the right to dominate a conversation, intimidate others, and interrupt and disrespect other people. Also, being an elder does not mean that we “deserve” respect – it still needs to be earned. And it sounds to me as if this guy desperately wants that respect, but doesn’t know how to get it.
I edited your letter for space, but you say that he comes to every meeting. A guy (and this is no doubt true of women also) who has been transitioned for years and comes to every meeting, particularly when the meetings consist of young guys who are in the early or mid stages of transition, is probably there for one or more of four reasons: he wants to help and mentor younger, newer guys; he enjoys the company and camaraderie of being with his “own kind”; he is lonely and has no other community or friends to turn to; or he wants to be in a position of power in one area of his life. In this case, it sounds like the first two reasons are out and one or both of the second two reasons are in.
I know you don’t want to be a gossipy jerk, but I don’t think joining with others, depending on how it’s done, falls into that category. I would suggest that, the next time this guy monopolizes, interrupts, or is otherwise rude and out of control, you look around for the facial responses of others – blank stares, rolling eyes, frowns, looks of boredom or disapproval – then approach one or two of them at break, or before or after group, and say, “I don’t want to be a gossipy jerk, but it looked to me as if you are as bothered by this guy as I am. Is that the case? If so, maybe we can go to the facilitator together and discuss it.”
Facilitators don’t always have all the answers or always know what to do. Sometimes they might welcome the support and backup of others in the group in dealing with a problem member. I realize that this sounds like a contradiction to my advice for facilitators about not ganging up with members of the group against another member, but this is not what would be happening. Instead, you would be helping the facilitator to redirect this member (believe me, this facilitator does not want everyone to quit the group and then be stuck with just this one guy every week).
When the guy starts to monopolize the conversation, the facilitator or someone else can intervene and say, “I’d like to hear from Joe – he hasn’t said much tonight. What do you think, Joe?” When the guy interrupts someone, one of you can say, “Wait. I don’t think John was finished. I’d like to hear what he has to say.” When the guy makes sweeping generalizations, one of you can say, “Well, that’s not how it has been in my experience. I’ve found that …” This doesn’t mean that you silence the guy – it means that you protect your and everyone else’s right to talk and share in the group.
There comes a time when a group member can become so toxic for the group that he (or she) has to be asked to leave. That is the facilitator’s job, and it needs to be done in private. But first, the facilitator needs to approach the person (in private) and try to explain the problem and correct it. If he or she can’t do that, then some group members with the same concerns can be enlisted to help turn things around.
The guy will either get angry at not being the center of attention and leave the group, or he will be forced to change his ways, because the other group members, along with the facilitator, will exert the pressure necessary for him to make those changes. In this case, it’s not ganging up – it’s a genuine attempt to preserve the group and help the guy in question become a valuable, contributing member.
And although this is getting really long, I’m going to add my suggestions for attendees (maybe this guy will read this as well – we can only hope):
1. Honor the time limits given for talking and the age-old tradition of taking turns. I know this is hard, but try to recognize that your problems and situations aren’t unique or special, they are not more important than anyone else’s, and they are not more interesting than anyone else’s. We tend to find ourselves infinitely fascinating. Most other people don’t.
2. Contribute when you have something to contribute and listen when you don’t. Listening is highly underrated, and it can actually help you. Other people know stuff. Learn from them.
3. Check out the group’s description before you attend. If the group is for fully transitioned men or women who identify as such, and you identify as genderqueer and have no plans to transition, this is not the group for you. Don’t show up and then complain that your issues were not addressed and your needs were not met.
4. Pay attention to the rules, policies, and procedures of the group, as well as the unspoken social norms. Most facilitators are working hard and not getting paid. Don’t make them work harder by breaking rules, causing conflict, or creating divisions within the group. If you are not there for support and information, camaraderie, or to genuinely help others, then don’t go.
5. This is not your therapy session. Most groups are not therapy groups, and even those that are run by therapists are groups, not private sessions. If you need an hour to talk about your issues, book an appointment with your therapist. Support groups are for mutual give-and-take and sharing.
6. Don’t be too quick to dismiss the ideas and experiences of other group members. No, their situation might not be like yours, but they might have some thoughts or experiences that you can apply to your own situation. At the very least, they are trying to help.
7. No one is better or worse than you depending on his or her stage of transition or decisions about transition. So what if someone doesn’t want to get genital surgery? So what if he or she wants to date men instead of women or vice versa? So what if his or her path is not just like yours? What’s it to you? Unless the group is specifically for those who have gotten or are getting surgery, those who date women (or men) exclusively, or those who are on one particular path, then none of this matters. And if the group is specific and not appropriate for some of the attendees, that is the facilitator’s job to figure out.
8. You get out what you put in. Although this is not always the case – some groups are really dysfunctional and problematic – it is often true. Decide what you want from the group and create the most positive experience for yourself that you can. Don’t expect your questions to be answered if you don’t ask them. Don’t expect friendship and support if you don’t offer it in return. Don’t sit back with your arms crossed and think, “Okay, solve my problems.” Be an active, but responsible, participant in the group.
Readers, I know you’ve got some other thoughts, so let’s hear them – regarding attendees in general or in response to our reader’s question.
You would think that a good facilitator would pick up on this behaviour, and I wonder about the facilitation of this group. The tips above, about letting other people finish talking, and so on, are brilliant, but should ideally come from the facilitator, just in case it undermines the facilitator if they come from someone else, especially if that someone else is consistently the same person. Or if the facilitator does not feel up to it, then maybe the other members who do, might take turns in managing this guy (somehow, without it being too obvious).
Original writer here – the group has also had some change in moderators in the past few months due to illness and travel. The interim moderator did a decent job trying to gently (and, on one occasion, less-gently) redirect conversation if this particular guy dominated things too much or went off-topic, but I just think he either isn’t picking up on the social cues or is trying really hard not to notice them.
The interim moderator has left the area, sadly, and when meetings start again in a few weeks I will be interested to see how the original one handles the situation. If he isn’t as good at addressing the problem guy’s habits, I think I might feel comfortable saying “moderator x did this during group and it kept things running smoothly; could you try that?”
It will be interesting to see what happens. I hope you come back here and let us know.
It could also be that the guy has a mental health problem. Trans people have mental health issues just like everyone else, and they are not necessarily related to being trans. I think that we can be reluctant to admit or discuss mental health issues within our community because non-trans people then try to say that being trans is a mental health issue and that is the problem. If we would just get help for being trans, then we would be fine.
But both trans and non-trans people have mental health issues. If someone who is non-trans has a personality disorder, we say that person has a personality disorder. But if someone who is trans has a personality disorder, it somehow gets related to being trans, when, in many cases, it is not related at all. The transness and the personality disorder are two separate, distinct, and unrelated phenomena existing in the same person. Something like that is difficult to deal with, because it requires special skills on the part of the moderator.
Anyway, I am truly interested to find out what happens when the group starts up again, so it would be great if you could come back and comment here or e-mail me.
I won’t be there until early next month due to scheduling conflicts, but I will definitely report back if/when I talk to someone about the issue. I do have a general sense that other regulars are kind of frustrated by this guy; maybe no one wants to be the “bad guy” here but I think other people may be feeling the same things I am. I don’t want to push this person out of the group but I also don’t want his comments to make other people feel uncomfortable or talked over, which I suspect is the case now.
I am very much a conflict-avoider and I appreciate the tips you gave above – sometimes I put off difficult conversations because I can’t even figure out how to start them, but now I have a good idea of how I could approach this in the future.
Good point. No attendee should attempt to undermine the facilitator or take over in any way. The facilitator needs to retain the leadership position.
I want to add that just because someone is an “elder” he or she is still human with their human baggage and like Matt said respect is earned. Age (or time transitioned) and wisdom do not necessarily go hand in hand.
Sometimes those domineering “elders” are also the facilitators of the groups, which makes things a lot worse. That has been the case a lot in the past, though from what I hear, it gets better.
Point 7 is what bugged me most about the groups. There was a enourmous amount of judgementalness, together with cliquish behaviour. I’ve sometimes felt that attendees were redirecting the toxic experience of being judged by shrinks (to get treatment) towards younger attendees, and exerting that same power over them, by “diagnosing” them. I have run into that more than once. The more gender conforming attendees also tended to judge the less gender conforming very severely. More than once, the situation was pretty out of control, as the facilitators were initiating or joining in the behaviour.
Since the internet, groups don’t have the same power to share or refuse information like they had in the past, which is a very good thing.
We had someone like that in our group – much older guy, transitioned ages ago – and he did a lot of the same things as mentioned here. Fortunately our facilitator was able to guide things back to a good place each time and eventually the old guy left (maybe someone talked to him, maybe he just felt left out – I don’t know). It was sad, though, ’cause if we took the time to converse with him one-on-one, he actually had a lot of good stories and advice, but in the group setting it just didn’t work well.
On a slightly different topic: you didn’t mention that attendees should make an effort to be on time (though I suppose that falls under following the rules, right?). Our group was very large, the meetings were scheduled for an hour and a half and, although the facilitator always stressed that people should arrive on time because coming in late continuously interrupted the discussion, people would still show up at any time (some with only 10 minutes left, if you can believe it) and then we’d have to stop and let them sign in, introduce themselves, etc.
I know sometimes we have no control over things like traffic, last minute demands at work, babysitters that cancel or whatever, but in our case, some people would just stroll in whenever they felt like it because they could. Eventually it got so bad, a new rule was put into place giving everyone an extra 15 minutes to get there or don’t bother coming in. It may not have been fair for some, but it’s the ones that abused the original come-when-you-can policy that caused this.
Inconsiderate attendees that can ruin it for everyone – whether they’re hogging the discussion or interrupting by showing up an hour late – and that’s why a good facilitator is priceless.
This reminds me of what Matt said in the last blog about not moving the meeting. When new people arrive late it could be because they are working up the nerve to enter. I have been known to pace around working up the nerve to do whatever. Just a thought. Though I agree that those returning to meetings should make every effort to arrive on time.
In a group I attend regularly, we have an “oops/ouch” rule. Basically, if someone says something that’s offensive, problematic, or if you just want to hash something out, you say “ouch” (and explain why you said it), and the person you just ouched says “oops” (and anything else they’d like to say to explain themselves/apologize). While I have some qualms with the “oops/ouch” rule (it can be over-used, it could make conversation less organic, etc), I think a rule of this sort might come in handy in the group discussed in this post. For instance, when the aforementioned problem group-attendee is making sweeping generalizations, if there were an agreed-upon protocol in place for addressing offensive statements, it might be easier for group members to confront this guy without feeling quite as intimidated about calling him out. I hope this helps!
“Agreed-upon protocol” – perfect wording. That really makes all the difference and can make it much easier to deal with problems without necessarily singling anyone out.
I like that idea; it might be something I bring up if/when I talk to a group moderator about this issue.
Thanks!
This post has made me wonder how much of the problem stems from the older gentleman not being able to read nonverbal signals. What may seem obvious to some people (read: neurotypical folks), such as knowing when to stop speaking because your audience is bored or being able to “give and take” in conversation, are quite difficult for autistic people to master. The lack of such skills becomes painfully obvious in a group setting particularly when the facilitator is not well-versed in the various social skill levels that exist in the real world. They might be great around other highly social people, but when faced with autistic people, may be at a loss of what to do and so do nothing. Doing nothing may seem like the polite thing to do, but like you said, the facilitator should be helping to move along the conversation when it doesn’t happen naturally. As someone who is autistic and avoids talking in group situations because I’m deathly afraid of being seen as “that guy who doesn’t know when to shut up”, I greatly appreciate people who don’t necessarily expect everyone to be exactly the same social skills-wise and understand that some people need more guidance. I also appreciate straight-forwardness – if I did decide to talk and ending up being that guy, I would hope that the facilitator would take me aside and let me know. It’s very possible that this man just doesn’t know he’s autistic and has never been told that he tends to dominate discussions. Older autistic people are often undiagnosed – this man could be such a person. So if you’re the facilitator, speak up! He’ll be glad you told him as soon as possible instead of waiting until the entire group despises him and he doesn’t understand why no one wants to be friends with him.
That said, he might not be autistic at all…
Lol, I don’t think he’s autistic, Kian (though we both are only guessing). I’ve seen that type of domineering “elder” jerk, both in the mtf and ftm variety, several times since the early 90s. And I’ve heard about them from several other groups. I don’t know what it is that makes some older trans people so domineering. But it’s really exhausting and can cause mayhem if they are the only ones with access to vital information.
Generally, there is a strain of aggression in the trans communities that probably comes from deflecting a life time of oppression, by oppressing other trans people (as we usually don’t manage to fight back against cis people at all times).
I think it’s vital that the trans communities get aware of that tendency, or we will eat each other alive. Other minorities are dealing with that problem too.
Simon Baron-Cohen, who studies autism, recently argued (see http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110505103241.htm) that female-to-male transsexuals often have autistic traits, although usually not enough for a clinical diagnosis of autism.
If this is true, then quite a few transmen may find interacting in support groups challenging. Perhaps facilitators should read up on how to recognize autistic traits, and if a group participant doesn’t respond to polite hints, then, as Kian suggests, they should speak to the person in a more straightforward way, since polite hints often don’t work.
I have very imperfect social skills, and I have made the mistake to dominate discussions (in the classroom, not gender-related support groups–I didn’t even know the latter existed, until recently). I finally figured out that it was infuriating everyone else and I stopped. I wish someone had explained it to me sooner.
I don’t know if I have autism. I hope my social problems are due to gender dysphoria making me feel different from others, and now that I am transitioning, I will be able to identify more with others and get along with them better.
I have seen the exact same behaviour with trans women (and cis people in other groups), as I have attended several mixed group (in the past most trans groups were mixed, and dominated by trans women). Also, I talked to a friend who is a professional teacher for mentally disabled kids and teens, and she said that the fad for autism just doesn’t reflect scientific research. Only very few people are actually autistic, but there is a trend to call all kinds of social problems autistic. Often, social problems are just inexperience. Everybody needs to learn these things. Some do it earlier, others later, depending on their circumstances and talents.
Trans people are often isolated from “normal” social processes so I think it’s to be expected that they lack practise in that area. Being stealth doesn’t exactly help overcome social shyness (if you are already shy), and so on.
To get back on topic- that might explain why social interactions in trans self help groups might sometimes be more difficult than in other groups. (though I think other groups struggle with that problem too)
A lack in social skills is not the same as shyness. I am not shy, but the constant lack of empathy I receive about my social abilities to fit into the social world makes me not wish my problem was shyness. Autism exists – get over it.
Just to clarify my earlier comment, I hope I do not have autism because my goals and values are generally neurotypical, not because I think there is anything wrong with autism as an identity. I apologize if my earlier formulation was offensive.
Oh, no you’re fine.
I was referring to the “anon” person’s comment about autism being a fad.
Kian- I didn’t mean to equate autism with shyness obviously. I was just generally talking about trans people who often have some sort of social problem, for lack of better word – which I find natural considering the circumstances we have to live in.
That said, there are obviously people who are autistic or have autistic traits.
The general social problems of many trans people are equally obvious, but I think they might have other explanations as well and it won’t help if we don’t adress that (that is: social isolation and internalized agression that many trans people deal with). We should also be able to call out trans people on their jerky behaviour.
““This man often dominates conversations and loves to make really general statements about all sorts of things: aspects that were true of his history and transition that aren’t true for everyone else, huge blanket statements about how men are vs. how women are, that sort of thing. He also will interrupt other people in really rude ways. ”
I’ve only last month met a guy that resembles this one to a T- these guys are pretty common, and most definately not autistic.
I call that being an asshole. The problem is that autistic people are often considered assholes as well because people often assume some malevolent intent in their lack of attention to social details. People interpret their behavior from the perspective that everyone is automatically neurotypical and therefore understands social cues, but they just don’t care. Autistic people often do care very much, but no matter how hard they try they always manage to piss people off because they didn’t understand a specific social ritual.
My point is that he could very well be autistic and he might not fully understand why his behavior is unwanted. Or he could be an asshole, or even as autistic asshole. Regardless, a facilitator should not assume that this person is an asshole without at least saying something and trying to guide them into more sociable behavior first.
I agree- you never know with people. Your explanation of the difference between autism and asshole-ness is pretty helpful.
With the people I was referring to- it was pretty obvious that they didn’t care. They were into power and dominating others but they were able to read social cues etc., if they wanted to.
I do think it’s very possible that this person can’t read social cues well, but he will sometimes say things like “I know this is off-topic, but…” or “I don’t have a contribution to this discussion but I want to say this [unrelated and long-winded] thing” which makes it seem like he’s aware that he’s derailing things but doesn’t care. It’s difficult to tell, and again I just don’t feel comfortable saying something directly, although I feel more ready to talk to a moderator about the issue if it continues to feel disruptive.
Talking over people and interrupting is a major problem in any group. You’ll always have people who are more intent on thinking about what they will say next than listening.
It’s not a bad idea to have a rule that forbids anyone from talking over or interrupting anyone ever. You can have a word or phrase that indicates that a person is done talking & no one else is allowed to speak until the phrase is said signifying the end. It’s a pretty powerful norm, and you do – as moderator – need to set some time limits or keep check to make sure it’s not abused to let someone hog the floor. It’s surprisingly hard at first to make sure no one is ever interrupted, ever. Once people get used to it, the group tends to help the moderator enforce it, and it gives a chance for people who are quieter or less willing to jump in. It also is pretty powerful against a major butt-in-ski.
One of the hardest parts of being a facilitator is dealing with someone who speaks as if everything is one big run-on sentence. No periods nor pauses are allowed to exist. Every group I’ve ever been in has had one of these characters. So, yes, I agree interruptions are rude, but there also has to be a way to redirect groups being hijacked by someone who refuses to let anyone else get a word in. I also think that, as facilitator, you have situations where a group member is clearly upset and needs to process something intense going on in their life while someone else is going on and on about pretty much irrelevant ‘gender discussion’. Yes, people need to be responsible for stating their own needs for group input, but many people are intimidated to ask for time when someone else isn’t allowing for an opening.
Also, in a group that has a facilitator, people might feel it is not their place to interrupt as that would be the job of the facilitator. So they need to be up to the task of interrupting. Meaning a good facilitator needs to strike a balance between being friendly and strict (can’t find the right words in English).
Here’s an update, if anyone’s curious: I did finally send an email to the group facilitator. I had a conversation with a few other regulars who were equally frustrated by this person’s behavior, and there was a recent meeting where he said some really out-of-line things (that I was too shocked by in the moment to comment on right when he said them).
The facilitator is aware of the problem – I think other people have complained as well – and is working on the best way to handle it. I’m feeling “guardedly optimistic,” as politicians like to say, and at least now I feel like I’ve done what I can and can maybe relax a bit at meetings. I do think the community elder part and the fact that this person has been around longer than most other group members makes this harder, but… maybe that just means there’s been a toxic group member for way too long.
Thanks for the update. It’s going to be tough for the facilitator, and maybe if he just talks to the guy, he can remedy it. It’s possible that the guy does not realize what he’s doing. Let us know what happens if you can.
“3. Check out the group’s description before you attend. If the group is for fully transitioned men or women who identify as such, and you identify as genderqueer and have no plans to transition, this is not the group for you. Don’t show up and then complain that your issues were not addressed and your needs were not met.”
Just a quick comment on this one. As binary-identified guy who faciliates a support group that is mostly binary-identified guy (though isn’t exclusively for such), I know often the support groups in existence don’t meet everyone’s needs. There just aren’t any genderqueer-specific support groups where I am, for instance.
I think it would be entirely appropriate for someone to contact the group facilitator, or the organization sponsoring the support group, to say something like, “I’m ABC, and I see your support group is only for XYZ. Would it be possible to also have a group for folks who are ABC?”
Just speaking for myself, as a facilitator, I WANT people to let me know things like this. I WANT to know what my community’s needs are.