The discussion that we had last week with the post Why Do Some Lesbians Bash Trans Men? was so engaging and enlightening for me that I thought we might continue it from a slightly different angle.
Some of the commenters mentioned that trans women are not always welcome in lesbian spaces and can also be the targets of verbal bashing by both non-trans lesbians and gay men. The same is true of trans men with relationship to non-trans gay men.
Of course, there are plenty of homophobic trans people out there, but the power differential tends to favor non-trans people in most situations, so fewer non-trans lesbians and gay men are likely to feel marginalized by homophobic trans people. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It just means that the ramifications of trans homophobia might not be as great or extensive as the ramifications of gay and lesbian transphobia in a community that bills itself as LGBT.
But for trans lesbians who are made to feel unwelcome in non-trans lesbian space, and for gay trans men who are made to feel unwelcome in non-trans gay male space, I still think the problem boils down to a misunderstanding about what being trans is actually all about. I think this misunderstanding manifests in different ways, depending on the situation:
> As some commenters said last week (and I really appreciated having this perspective), the misunderstanding might not be on the part of the gay men or lesbians themselves. The misunderstanding could be on the part of the larger non-trans community (the “mainstream” community), who then assumes that, because trans people are, or have been, in lesbian and gay communities, that must mean that lesbians and gay men are really trans.
By separating themselves from trans people, and even privately or publicly criticizing trans people, some lesbians and gay men are trying to make it clear that “this is not me – I’m not like this.” So a general misunderstanding of trans people in the larger society could create a need in gay men and lesbians to distinguish themselves from trans people, and verbal bashing might be one way to accomplish that.
> For many lesbians who do not fully understand what being trans means (and it’s hard to expect them to when they have not experienced it, but full understanding of something is not required to accept that something is), there can be the feeling of invasion of space.
This can be particularly apparent with the establishment of women-only spaces, and an extreme manifestation of this is the creation of women-born-women (or womyn-born-womyn) spaces. (These spaces can also be created by non-trans straight women.)
I have not had the experience of being shut out of one of these spaces because I have not tried to enter one, and I believe that I have no business there. I can only guess what being excluded from these spaces feels like for trans women, and I can imagine that it is pretty awful.
But again, I think this sense of “invasion” of non-trans women’s spaces, and some non-trans women’s attempts to keep trans women out of these spaces, is a result of a misunderstanding of trans women in general.
As with last week’s post, when I talked about the male privilege that has been used against lesbians, and the resulting trans-man-bashing that might occur as a result, I think that, in these women-born-women situations, there is a sense that individuals who once had privilege (whether they really did or not) will somehow bring that privilege, as well as pieces of former masculine socialization, to these spaces.
I’m sure that this has happened or has appeared to happen . But my guess is that, in the majority of situations, it has not, does not, or would not. Many trans women were never able to internalize the masculine socialization that was forced on them to begin with. The problem is that opportunities to discover these truths are sometimes shut down before they can materialize, which then limits understanding even more.
> While most non-trans gay men (at least in my experience) do not establish “official” men-born-men spaces (the power differential between most non-trans and trans gay men seldom requires it), there can be unspoken “rules” with regard to some of these spaces, and there can be the same feeling of “invasion” that results from a misunderstanding of trans people – that sense of “you are your original birth certificate, and what are you doing here?”
The feeling of “betrayal” can also, at times, be even stronger for gay men because trans men can assimilate so rapidly if they choose to, but they don’t always possess the anticipated “equipment.”
Genitals seem to be just as big a deal to some non-trans gay men as they are to some non-trans lesbians in that they seem to represent much more than just body parts – they seem to represent an entire person or an entire life, which apparently includes every negative stereotype ever created about people who have that type of genital configuration.
So the misunderstanding continues. And the misunderstanding is a type of vicious circle, because it will never be eliminated as long as there are barriers to certain spaces, and the barriers to certain spaces will remain intact until the misunderstanding is eliminated.
My disclaimers: It would take a book to examine all possible causes and permutations of this phenomenon. In addition, what I have written about is by no means universal, it manifests differently in different communities, and in some communities, it does not manifest at all. I am writing from my personal experiences and observations, along with what other people have told me. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
And, as should be obvious, I cannot speak for trans women. I can only surmise and second-guess. So I hope we hear from many on this topic.
While I still believe that “T” goes with “LGB,” and I have my own personal arguments to support that opinion, I have heard many valid arguments from the other side. Regardless of what we do with “LGBT,” there will always be lesbian trans women and gay trans men, so the issues will no doubt continue.
Readers – more thoughts on this topic?
I’m glad you brought up the issue of genitals- as a gay man (who happens to be trans, a vegetarian, and a coffee lover), my experience with LGBT spaces has often been… leaving something to be desired. The LGBT space on campus, for example, although technically open to everyone, has a funny way of being all men. The campus itself has historically been male-dominated (I study at a tech school), and the male culture has manifested itself in the space. Trans* students and queer female students tend not to hang out there, because it just doesn’t feel like “home”.
My assesment of the discomfort I feel in that space and in the gay community on campus, in addition to your ideas, is that it relates to two things: firstly, the carry-over of privileges/assumptions, and secondly, the common asexualization of trans* bodies by non-trans* people.
1) In spite of being gay, lesbian, bi, queer, trans*, bla bla bla, we still have all our original assumptions. This means that gay cismen, particularly the gay men who can afford an expensive, private, tech school, have A LOT of privilege that they’re carrying around. Part of privilege is the active job of maintaining one’s right to said privilege, which is why there is often something of an out-cry whenever we suggest closing the campus LGBT center to non-male-ID’ed folks for short times each week (as a means to outreach to that part of the student body). Basically, coming out as a gay cisperson doesn’t immediately make you a beacon of shining evolvedness and perfect non-oppression. You still have most of the privileges you had before.
2) Trans* people and disabled people and Deaf people have this funny thing in common: people seem to think we don’t have sex. My experiences in gay-man land have often been alright and respectful, provided there is no discussion of my sex-life, how I have sex, and so on. This relates to genitals, in that it’s easier for gay cismen to accept me as gay as long as my body isn’t permitted in the realm of the sexual. By extension, I tend not to get many dates, at least not in the campus gay community.
Those are my two cents!
Im interested in reading the comments for this post, but don’t know how to get updated without leaving a comment.
Same goes for some Trans women, who use homophobia to show they’re not gay men.
But yes, I’d say 90% of GLB transphobia is about gays and lesbians insisting that they’re “normal” and not like “those freaks”. And gosh, do they hate “cis” vs “trans”. To them it’s normal vs trans, and always will be.
And I’m sure all Trans guys miss the little things like having door opened for them, greater choice of coloured and textured clothing, and being talked over and told “don’t you worry your pretty little head about it, dear”.
NOT
Guys had feminised socialisation forced in them. On you. It must have been hellish, I don’t understand boys, but I understand that much. Actually, I’m not a great fan of the infantilisation of girls either. We shouldn’t have to accept it.
The only thing that worries me is that Trans guys understand more about women than any man has a right to. Not that you understand a lot, but if anyone gets the idea of “male privilege”, you do. Also (dirty little secret time), the female privilege too. It’s not much in comparison with the rubbish we get, but it’s real. Transition for you has real effects – “women and children first”. You become expendable. I don’t like that idea either.
“The only thing that worries me is that Trans guys understand more about women than any man has a right to.”
Whaddaya mean? Why does that worry you?
I kinda do miss the clothes, though.
But I definitely had a lot of very specific socialization that was forced on me, and it has been hard for me to overcome. While that’s not true of every guy, it was and is definitely true of me. A lot of that is coming out in my next book. It was an interesting childhood.
…did you start a mailing list for the announcement of its release? I want to be on there!
No, I haven’t, but that’s a good idea. I just have to figure out how to start a mailing list. I was working on one a while back, but I’m not extremely tech savvy. It shouldn’t be too hard, though. I will be announcing it here on the blog. I was hoping for mid to late March, but it might be April. It’s finished, though, and at the publisher, the cover is designed, so now I’m just waiting for it to get put together and it will be a go. I will look into the mailing list thing. I need to get with the times. But as CaptLex says below: “8-tracks? Dude, you’re old!”
“The only thing that worries me is that Trans guys understand more about women than any man has a right to.”
Just because I was given the incorrect gender marker on my BC and socialized in the incorrect gender for awhile, does not equate to “understanding women”, because I don’t understand them at all. A misinformed assumption on your part.
“Just because I was given the incorrect gender marker on my BC and socialized in the incorrect gender for awhile, does not equate to “understanding women”, because I don’t understand them at all. A misinformed assumption on your part.”
Yup, good point. Because of my female-oriented socialization of many years, I do think I understand women much better than most guys – not completely, but enough to relate and empathize in some ways (most guys won’t ever know what menstrual cramps feel like, no matter how hard they try). How can this be a bad thing? Anything that helps me understand people is universally beneficial, I feel. Of course, some things women generally do will always be a mystery to me.
Matt, I don’t miss the clothes, per se (pantyhose? bras? ugh!), but I sometimes miss the greater opportunities for dressing up and showing off. Haha! Yes, I’m a bit of a peacock, I’ll admit. People say there are no bright colorful clothing for men, but that’s not true – plenty of gay boys find them ‘cause they know where to look. But I have to admit that transition has toned that down for me because, sadly, colorful attire can be an invitation to serious physical harm in some places.
Good point about the menstrual cramps. That’s as far as my understanding goes, save for the obvious and not so obvious lack of privilege.
I think I do understand women – not all women, of course, because no two women, like no two men, are alike. But I feel like I really understand the white Western concept of “woman,” because I was so thoroughly socialized into that concept. Of course, it also has to do with my generation, my country, my region within my country, my actual and perceived socioeconomic status, and so on.
I keep thinking my generation has a huge effect on my particular “female” socialization, but I teach at local colleges, and I have discovered that not a whole lot has changed. There are very similar patterns that I am seeing today in the young men and women, so I am not as much of a dinosaur as I think I am. (Although I did use the term “boombox” the other day when I meant “subwoofer,” and the students thought that was pretty funny – I think a “boombox” is my generation. Actually, an 8-track is my generation!)
I remember 8 tracks.
I guess I was lucky in that although I was perceived as female growing up, I had little to do with girls and women…only meaning that I had a head start pre transition. Whenever I tried to be a female, it just felt wrong and unnatural.
“Whenever I tried to be a female, it just felt wrong and unnatural.”
Yeah I get that – the way I explained it to someone is, it felt like I was undercover in enemy territory gathering intelligence (yes I know, I watch too many spy movies). But again, in MY experience (I won’t speak for anyone else), I don’t see that as entirely a bad thing because it gave me insight into how women (generally) interact and that means I can relate better to them than if I had been born correctly. That’s why I don’t understand the comment above (“Trans guys understand more about women than any man has a right to”). Fortunately, I also hung out with guys (mostly gay guys), so they’re not a huge mystery to me now either.
Wow, Matt, 8-tracks? Dude, you’re old!
“it felt like I was undercover in enemy territory gathering intelligence.”
Yes exactly.
Old doesn’t even scratch the surface! I remember my first 8-track – it was Woodstock! Country Joe and the Fish, Richie Havens, wow, I can’t even remember who else was on that tape. My 8-track player was two speakers that folded into a carrying case. Man, 8-tracks were not a good invention.
I hope you realize I tease you about age because we’re from the same generation (who else would remember cartoon jelly glasses?). I never had an 8-track player, but I had a cassette player and that was not a good invention either – I can’t tell you how many tapes got tangled and had to be rewound with a pencil. Ah good times . . .
Good Morning Matt. Would you like some boolean math logic problems with your coffee this morning?
I wanted to comment on this post, but I am not sure what to say other than as a gay trans man I exist. I don’t want to be marginalized by my community and I am open enough to accept everyone into my space, trans, non trans, gay, lesbian, straight, bi, queer, and all ethnicities and in all combinations or premutations that people come in. I choose not to judge books by there covers and I wish those in “our” community that want to shut some people out would at least read he first chapter of the book before making and judgements.
What I say in this post will, no doubt, irritate some people. But I’ve grown used to that and will only say that it isn’t my intention, rather my intention is to share my opinion. And my opinion, just like everyone elses, is just an opinion to be considered and then reflected upon…or not.
There is one primary issue that those in the non-trans spectrum share…confusion/fear over/about our genitalia. Nearly every violent encounter with others involves bathroom usage, sexual acts, or the perception of deception regarding our genitalia. Please understand that I’m generalizing the three categories above very broadly…a rape would be categorized under sexual act although I am completely aware that rape is usually about power rather than sex…I am by profession a Criminologist with my original career and training being that of USMC Military Police/CID.
Additionally in the U.S.A. our overall societal culture has developed into a strict gender binary which we are ALL cognizant of whether we agree with it or not. Newborns are “genderized” at birth by classification of their GENITALIA. After that we all know about the pink side and the blue side of society and that based on our GENITALIA we have to fit in, again whether we like it or not. Yes, times are slowly changing and more people realize that gender isn’t contained/located in our genitalia but they still don’t have any idea where our gender IS located. But that isn’t surprising since the debate still rages on over what the Soul is and where it is…and is some circles whether or not we even have one. In an odd sort-of way, gender is like the soul, most of us know about ourselves but have no clue about others.
My point in all this is that, especially as transfolk, we all know that gender, genitalia, and sexuality are three entirely separate issues that can, and I’m sure do, exist in all combinations possible. Others do NOT understand and therefore, as is typical in human behavior, they fear and come to hate what they do not understand. Time and education are the answers and neither can be forced or hurried. Our society, and it’s multitudinous cultures, are all undergoing growing pains as both humans and the world itself change. All we can do is be patient, be teachers, be as forgiving as possible without becoming door-mats or martyrs, and wait for our human brethren to evolve along with us.
“What I say in this post will, no doubt, irritate some people.”
I’m still waiting for the irritating part.
“Time and education are the answers and neither can be forced or hurried. Our society, and it’s multitudinous cultures, are all undergoing growing pains as both humans and the world itself change. All we can do is be patient, be teachers, be as forgiving as possible without becoming door-mats or martyrs, and wait for our human brethren to evolve along with us.”
I don’t disagree with you, but I’m impatient because I don’t think I have that much time – that is, I don’t believe that things will evolve sufficiently during my time.
I’m 56 and I don’t think I’ll see the full evolution to acceptance either. In fact my opinion (again here I am throwing it out there…) is that unless Extraterrestrials from another planet land on Earth and shake up the public consciousness…which will make all the Gender Police change badges and become Alien Police…we will suffer a lack of equal rights until the end of time because we’re an easy target.
I have had uncomfortable interactions with individual trans* women in women’s spaces.
Just saying that is hard, and invites dismissal as transphobic. But I believe that women’s spaces aren’t about genitalia: they are about shared culture and behavior. Some trans* women fit in; others don’t. Those that don’t tend to be highly entitled, or not realize or not care that instead of assimilating they are making people around them uncomfortable.
I know it would be rude and mean to exclude them, but they make me not want to be there. It’s no longer a women’s space and it has nothing to do with genitals and everything to do with behavior. There are cis women who disrupt these spaces the same way, but I’ve only once seen such a woman seek out a woman’s space and people didn’t feel awkward about telling her she needed to change how she behaved or leave. Trans* women seem more likely to be seeking community in women’s spaces and so the issue comes up.
I know insisting on assimilation is Bad, and also that it’s Bad to generalize about trans* folks. I also don’t want to downplay or excuse the very real transphobia of some lesbians.
It’s a struggle for me because I do believe people have a right to be disruptive. It’s just that my first reaction when someone does is to leave, because I’m no longer getting from those spaces what I was looking for.
“I believe that women’s spaces aren’t about genitalia: they are about shared culture and behavior. Some trans* women fit in; others don’t. Those that don’t tend to be highly entitled, or not realize or not care that instead of assimilating they are making people around them uncomfortable.”
Shared culture and behavior is learned (in my opinion) over time, so if transitioning later in life for example, or not having a community that will accept us so we can learn that stuff, there won’t be much, if any and how can there be when there are such strict roles and rules for men and women?
I took this commenter’s opinion personally and as transphobic. As an older person who transitioned later in life, I have no shared anything, but I should care about making cis people uncomfortable? I don’t. They have enough rights and privilege to be extremely comfortable.
Maybe I am as uncomfortable, if not more so, than they are and “assimilating” to make them comfortable is not my job.
Maybe a way to deal with and get over your transphobia is by looking within-honestly-and staying so you can have honest, hard conversations with the very people who make you uncomfortable.
“I believe that women’s spaces aren’t about genitalia: they are about shared culture and behavior. Some trans* women fit in; others don’t. Those that don’t tend to be highly entitled, or not realize or not care that instead of assimilating they are making people around them uncomfortable.”
And there it is in a nutshell complete with the “I’m an older transitioner and find this transphobic” entitled reaction.
I transitioned in my forties so I guess that makes me an older transitioner as well and I see the comment by Meg as refreshingly honest and sincere and accurate as all get out. Perhaps my being a lifelong feminist was the difference? Word, some transwomen (and women of transsexed history) fit in women’s space and some do not. My own experience has been simply if you do not go to woman only space as anything other than a woman (no damn modifiers) you probably don’t belong there in the first place. If you do go as a woman (no modifiers) you might find almost no one has a problem with you. That’s been my experience over the past 13 years anyway.
Well, it’s also not their job to educate you (and it is sexist to demand that they do, playing into the long-held theory that women should set aside their comfort to do emotional work for other people.) There are many spaces that are a more gentle introduction to how women interact with one another than diving into “women’s only” spaces: those are predicated on such social norms. Like I said before, this isn’t a double standard: cis women are expected to confront their misogyny and entitlement before they’ll fit in too.
The attitude that it doesn’t matter how uncomfortable your behavior makes women in women’s spaces is exactly what I am talking about. Being a cis woman isn’t comfortable, and if you think it is you’ve had a failure of empathy: this isn’t oppression olympics and declaring that they don’t deserve these spaces means that of course you don’t want to participate in them as they exist. And that disregard is destructive towards something I value highly: space where I can relax.
I’m sorry that the exact same spaces apparently don’t work for you (I note that for some trans* women it does), but I don’t understand why you would want to take that away from me. It is not all spaces all the time, but women, trans and cis, do deserve space where they can relax and find community on the basis of shared behavior and commonalities.
The purpose of women’s spaces is to have a place where I can expect to be comfortable. Otherwise I might as well be back out in the rest of the world and have the opportunity to interact with awesome men as well, while individually sorting out the uncomfortable-making influences and sexualization.
I’m not made uncomfortable by women because they are trans*, I am made uncomfortable by a certain set of behaviors and beliefs that are somewhat more prevalent, in my experience, among trans* women than cis women. I don’t feel the need to reach deep into my soul and make myself okay with behavior that demonstrates a lack of respect for me and my boundaries.
I’m trying to have those hard, honest conversations: it’s why I posted this here. But in order for it to be a conversation it has to be a two-way thing: I don’t feel like that’s what you are looking for. “You have to tolerate me, no matter what I do, because you don’t deserve to be comfortable,” is not a conversation: it is an ultimatum.
“…but women, trans and cis, do deserve space where they can relax…”
My point exactly.
I guess since you have not spoken about the “specific set of behaviors and beliefs”, I am not understanding your issue.
“You have to tolerate me, no matter what I do, because you don’t deserve to be comfortable,”
You misunderstood what I was saying And put words in my mouth. I said that it was not my job to make cis people comfortable. (But it is also not my job to make them uncomfortable.)
Maybe it would help to explain the behaviors they display?
One point I’d like to make is that I don’t think women’s spaces are the ideal: I think they are important stepping-stones. I prefer spaces, such as some anarchist spaces, where everyone has consciously focused on active listening, collaboration and respect without regards to gender. There are also specific men’s groups, like the Radical Fairies, that also focus on re-valuing feminine, internalized, listening-focused group dynamics.
It is not the case that when I say “woman’s space” I mean that the qualifications are genitalia: instead it’s a short-hand for spaces that only include the usually-belittled feminine mechanisms of social interactions. It is very, very rare to find men who fit in to such spaces, and so the easiest way to create them is to say “women only” and then use social norms to alienate those women who don’t like participating in that kind of femininity. Because of that, when someone doesn’t fit in it is not because they are not a woman. I have been struggling for a while to come up with a word that would make this distinction clear, but haven’t found one yet. Finding such spaces comfortable doesn’t make one a woman, and not fitting in doesn’t mean one isn’t a woman: it just means that one has a different style of interacting.
That might be the biggest difference between how cis and trans* women engage with such spaces. Cis women who don’t fit in usually mock the type of femininity personified there (“let’s process!”) and walk away, while I could see how trans* women who don’t fit in might see it as a rejection of their womanhood. After all, they are called “women’s spaces”: that sounds pretty universal! Perhaps the closest analogy would be Science Fiction conventions: just because one doesn’t go to Star Trek conventions doesn’t mean one isn’t a nerd, much less a fan. Just because one doesn’t play Counter Strike doesn’t mean one isn’t a gamer.
Some specific behaviors that I have observed among women, both cis and trans*, who don’t fit in well in those women’s spaces:
Interrupting, talking over other people or taking things personally instead of trying to understand the root of the disagreement (the aforementioned and much-derided “processing”.)
Responding to everything anyone says, talking more than other members, feeling like the only way to participate is by speaking and having other people listen. Not enjoying listening to other people’s stories or even just preferring speaking to listening. Not letting something one disagrees with pass, even if it is small or irrelevant to the larger point at hand.
Not seeking or focusing on commonality. Not participating in the social-bonding activity of reassuring other community members.
Not respecting personal space or other women’s boundaries. Not noticing or not responding to body language that indicates boredom, discomfort or discomfort. Getting upset at other people for not being interested in what one has to say, instead of internalizing such social discomfort and changing one’s own behavior.
Looking to the people around them for validation, education or to satisfy basic emotional needs. Feeling put out or getting angry if the members of a voluntary, egalitarian social group are unwilling to provide those things.
Feeling entitled to have people spend time and energy on or with them. Not drawing distinctions between “wants” and “needs”. Not understanding that even needs can at times directly conflict and being unwilling to negotiate or compromise when such circumstances come up.
Putting self-interest over group cohesion. Coming into an established group and expecting everyone else to change to accomodate the new member.
Many of these things can intersect with things beyond cis-status. For example, much of this is incredibly neuro-typical or focused on making people with anxiety comfortable at the expense of people who externalize. It can erase real differences, and make spaces racially homologous. It emphasizes assimilation and conformity.
Which is why I don’t think these spaces are the be-all and end-all. They work best as specific solutions, of limited duration or scope. However, the communities I’ve found and self-examination I’ve been able to do in such spaces is deeper than I’ve learned elsewhere. I would love to find better non-gendered ways to create such spaces, but I haven’t yet.
“Some specific behaviors that I have observed among women, both cis and trans*, who don’t fit in well in those women’s spaces:……”
Well hell I know a lot of people of all genders like that. They’re just rude without any other qualifiers (such as trans or cis) needed.
Sadly there are no classes (in my area anyway) that could adequately teach a trans person everything that a cis person learns through years of socialization. The best way for me to learn is to be around a bunch of cis people of the gender that I transitioned to.
Thank you for explaining better where you are coming from.
Excuse me for being dense, but why would you want to participate in a group based on those years of socialization if you don’t feel like you have it?
I’m half-black, but grew up with a single white parent in a white neighborhood. I don’t spend time in PoC exclusive spaces not because I wouldn’t be welcome and not because I’ve never felt alienated by being different, but because I don’t actually share much of the cultural experiences on which they are based. Instead I’ve found mixed spaces that reflect my experience, or non-exclusive spaces.
Meg’s describing groups based on shared socialization, and some other trans women here have said they feel welcome and included in such spaces, so it’s not the case that the split on socialization is cis/trans. Instead it seems like you are saying these groups should be based on binary identity instead of socialization?
Wow, Meg– that was a pretty interesting read. You explained to me, a female assigned person, for the first time, what exactly is expected in such “women’s spaces”. What you are basically saying here is that in such spaces, behaviours that were forced unto women and developed in women’s comunities through patriarchial oppression (e.g. listening more that talking, putting group cohesion over self interest etc) are the standart that people should follow.
Wow. And I always thought feminism was about women learning to get out of patriarchal oppression.
(I’m aware that you don’t see such spaces as ideal)
I’m glad that is only the opinion of a specific segment of feminism, and not feminism per se.
With regards to the trans women who asked- the problem is that often such women’s spaces are the only place to hook up with the women’s/lesbian communities in smaller areas. So being excluded from these places means that you get socially ostracised.
I never said these were universal to all women and personally I’m glad only a specific segment of feminism wants to turn all women into masculine assholes.
I enjoy spaces where these behaviors are the norm. I look forward to a day when we insist everyone empathize with people around them and expect everyone to have social intelligence, instead of just imposing those expectations on women.
Until then I will continue to seek out spaces that adopt those behaviors as the norm.
“personally I’m glad only a specific segment of feminism wants to turn all women into masculine assholes.”
So because people are masculine, they’re assholes? There is a difference between masculine and macho, or do they mean the same thing to you?
So women who are assertive and speak their mind are masculine? Interestinger and interestinger.
I respect your taste of course. I consider myself a feminist and my personal vision would be that women are individuals that walk with a straight back and not look at what others think all the time. But that’s just my taste ^^
Anyways, I learned something that I didn’t know before, so thanks for explaining (seriously).
Meg, thank you for taking the time to express how you feel about women’s spaces and the impact transwomen can (I hope unwittingly) make on those spaces.
It puts transwomen in a difficult position I think, both not wanting to be a disruptive influence to other women but also needing ‘non male’ space to develop as women.
My personal experience of transition was to go through a hormonally charged puberty period, trying to work out where and how you fit into society now…..it’s difficult on everyone around you for sure.
Unfortunately for transwomen the only way to learn ( and you more or less relearn everything) is from other women and I was fortunate to have a small number of friends who helped me along the way.
The socialisation I am referring to can’t happen in any space that has male participants (you know how the conversation changes when there are men in the room) so where do we go? What do we do? I get that women want spaces where they feel comfortable and I can’t help but have feelings of distress that my own presence would disrupt that.
I am also fascinated that you have identified certain behaviours in transwomen that make you feel uncomfortable. I was wondering if you could try and descibe them.
I don’t think no one should ever teach, but expecting random strangers to stop doing whatever they were doing and teach I find at least a bit rude.
I was a socially awkward girl, and learned to be comfortable in social interactions by feeling awkward, observing other people and by reading books until my social intelligence developed. I’m sure other people learn other ways. However if, as a disruptive teenage girl, I’d gone into spaces where I spend time now, I’d have rightly been shown the door.
I don’t think your presence will inherently disrupt. I think the best way to approach groups is to go and see if you feel like you already fit in. If not, there are three options: one is to decide it’s because people there are transphobic, the second is to decide you’d like to and figure out what is different between your behaviors and those of people more like you’d like to be, and the third is to find a different space where you do fit (or if one doesn’t exist in the area, start one: that was part of my teenage solution.)
I just don’t think the right answer in that situation is to decide that other women need to set aside the purpose these spaces were playing in the first place, which is what I have seen expected of them in the past.
Thank you for your advice. At the moment I don’t go anywhere near female spaces simply because of the anger (in my eyes) that many second wave feminists have towards transwomen. My socialisation has been at work, at parties, other groups, from lovers and from my female partner, who perhaps is not a good example as she dislikes most people generally lol.
I notice you keep on saying though that “expecting random strangers to stop doing whatever they were doing and teach I find at least a bit rude”. I have been a teacher for 23 years and learning does not necessarily involve an active teaching activity. You can learn from observation and sometimes that’s the best way to learn. When I say ‘learn from other women’ I am not implying that someone has to devote time to that. Just like any person learning to adapt to their society you watch and you learn
The adolescent phase is a tempory one BTW as is all adolescence but it may explain why you find some transwomen disruptive……just a possibility…..
“There are many spaces that are a more gentle introduction to how women interact with one another than diving into “women’s only” spaces: those are predicated on such social norms. Like I said before, this isn’t a double standard: cis women are expected to confront their misogyny and entitlement before they’ll fit in too.”
What’s funny is that by insisting that there is a way to “behave and act like a woman” (and that all women need to conform to whatever that is to fit in), you undermine basically all of feminism and actually lend support to patriarchal oppression.
“What’s funny is that by insisting that there is a way to “behave and act like a woman” (and that all women need to conform to whatever that is to fit in), you undermine basically all of feminism and actually lend support to patriarchal oppression.”
I’m glad you brought that up, Kelly, though I tend to think of it as binary oppression instead of strictly patriarchal oppression. I’ve expressed an opinion similar to yours and been shut down for it (not here, though). Basically, I reject when supposedly well-meaning people (mostly cis men and trans women, but not exclusively) take it upon themselves to give me (unrequested) advice on what I need to change about myself and what behaviors I need to adopt in order to become a “real” man. So, similar to your point, I don’t see why all men need to conform either.
“Basically, I reject when supposedly well-meaning people (mostly cis men and trans women, but not exclusively) take it upon themselves to give me (unrequested) advice on what I need to change about myself and what behaviors I need to adopt in order to become a “real” man.”
Ditto.
Thank you Kelly, for pointing out the obvious misogyny in this persons argument with me.
Not misogyny-I meant transphobia. I need more coffee.
You keep telling yourself that: I’m out. It must be nice never having to engage with people who disagree with you: they’re just transphobic!
Did you conveniently forget that it was you who specified trans women?
It must be nice to be ignorant about your cissexism and your transphobia and then cry victim. As a trans person, I don’t have those luxuries.
I said to fit in to some specific spaces. Nothing about “to be a woman”. I believe there are many ways to be a woman, and women who prefer other group dynamics can, and do, create their own spaces.
Mainly what I encounter when in the LGBT community is that some LGBs don’t take my gender seriously and call me “she”. I do correct them as kindly as possible and tell them that I don’t like to be belittled because I am female to male. Perhaps ths will go away more as people see me as male as my transition progresses.
As far as all female lesbian space, I don’t know why a trans man would want to go there. I don’t. I have never f4lt comfortable in those spaces even way before I realized I was trans. I just didn’t know why I was uncomfortable in those kinds of spaces. I have always been more comfortable in mixed, progressive politics spaces with all LGBTQAs.
We need to have specific spaces and times to educate each other on the problems of transphobia and homophobia and how intertwined these phobia really are. All LGBTs catch the crap from both phobias and we really need to address this in our large diverse community and the branch out to the straight world where gender and sex needs to be addressed.
I completely agree! I was very confused when I realized I didn’t gel with the lesbian community on my college campus. I just thought I was a really terrible lesbian until I realized I was trans. And despite all of our differences, LGBT people all face discrimination, and we could all use each other’s help.
Very sorry to hear that people belittle you and purposefully deny your identity. I only experienced that once, with my father before he was willing to deal with my transition; it was awful and I would not wish that on anyone else. I hope that they get their acts together and start treating you with the respect you deserve. Hope the transition is going well!
Oh, I forgot to say that I think it is awful that there are lesbians who shun trans women. In my experience with trans women is that they come in all kinds just like cis women do. Some are quite masculine and some are very feminine and everything in between. But I never felt that they were men at all.
Being in two marginianized groups (trans and blind) I can’t understand how people who get discrimination can turn around and do the same thing to other folks. Trans women ARE women and sure as hell don’t get “male privilege” at all. They get incredible CRAP in society and they need to be welcomed as women in the womens’ spaces and communities and to be made to feel safe.
What’s striking to me about the women-only spaces I have encountered or read about is they seem to favor an interpretation of gender that denies the identities of most, if not all, trans people. I’d like to place a caveat on my post that I am newly out, and still wrapping my mind around where my privilege lies now that I am transitioning, as well as my place in the LGBT community.
My only firsthand experience is the women-only dorm on my college campus. It has become, unofficially, a women and trans people dorm, though the lack of official definition has caused problems. People argue about which “kinds” of trans people would be welcome, and tend to lean toward the female-bodied interpretation. As a trans man, this does not make me feel more welcome – it is the part of me with which I do not identify that allows me access to that space.
The other situation that comes to mind for me is the music festival that comes up so often in these discussions – Michigan Music Festival, I believe, is the name. It seems to be the same problem there. My understanding is that I would be welcome there, which just makes me feel kind of sick, as I feel it is a lack of acknowledgement of my own identity that causes people to say I would belong there, while a trans woman would not be welcome for the same reason.
I don’t know what the solution to these issues is. The strongest argument I have ever heard in terms of the college dorm is that allowing male-bodied people to live there would make anyone who chooses to live there because of previous experiences with assault feel unsafe. But, to me, that argument perpetuates that same inaccurate idea that trans people are out to hurt others. And, again, the argument depends on denying people their right to their own identities.
I have also experienced the lesbian anti-trans sentiment and the weird sort of hyper-feminism that causes some women to argue against transition. The whole “be proud to be a woman” thing. I consider myself to be a feminist, not because I was born female, but because it goes along with my values. I don’t think my being trans and transitioning hurts my ability to be a feminist, though I do acknowledge it is slowly changing how people perceive me – obviously. But, thankfully, these attitudes have been few and far between in my personal experience.
I’m sorry, this is a long post, but I guess I just wonder where the solution lies. No one should be forced to educate others about their own situations, as Meg mentioned, but in this case (not Meg, but the issue of women’s spaces in general) that feels to me more like an excuse. Why should certain kinds of women, or even women of particular personalities, be the only ones allowed in certain spaces? Safe spaces for women should be safe spaces for all women (and I think that goes for safe spaces based on any identity). We all have to accept that not everyone in our identity “groups” shares the same values or life experiences or personality traits. I have met men, trans and cis, with whom I do not get along, I am Jewish, and I have met many Jews with whom I do not get along. But I would never deny that they have as much of a right to the spaces we share as I do. In this case, it is not about education, or privilege, or cohesive personalities; it is about acceptance.
“Why should certain kinds of women, or even women of particular personalities, be the only ones allowed in certain spaces? Safe spaces for women should be safe spaces for all women (and I think that goes for safe spaces based on any identity). We all have to accept that not everyone in our identity “groups” shares the same values or life experiences or personality traits. In this case, it is not about education, or privilege, or cohesive personalities; it is about acceptance.”
Exactly!
I’m also wondering why these spaces are called women’s spaces if only a very small subsegment of women (cis and trans) is invited at all. Why not give it a more specific name and spare everybody the time and nuisance that an unsuspecting not-belonging women might happen upon that group, only to be kicked out by “women’s” tactics?
Once again, a great discussion with a lot of different viewpoints. Thank you very much for reading and commenting.
As far as safe space, my comment would be that, with an “official” space, such as an officially organized support group, social group, or what have you, it’s best to establish certain “rules,” policies, and expectations for that particular group. These can and should be established by the members of the group and revisited as the group continues to evolve (or devolve, as the case may be). These group expectations should be read at the beginning of the group, and each member should be made aware of them. Then those who violate them can be made aware (privately) of that violation.
Obviously, there are problems. One person’s heated argument is another person’s serious discussion. But specific expectations can help with the comfort level of members.
For “unofficial” groups – friends hanging out and so on – there are usually unspoken expectations and norms for that particular group. Peer pressure does a lot to reinforce those informal expectations and norms, as it often does with formal expectations in formal groups. But human dynamics are complicated and unpredictable. Openness, honesty, and really listening to others’ concerns can go a long way in mitigating problems within a group.
Cohesiveness in the transgender community, does not exist. It is fractured and permeated with narcissistic platitudes. Other than health and wellness, we only benefit (and gratefully so) from the legislative achievements of gay and lesbian organizations. We have no shortage of T based organizations that think re-posting articles on FB will mobilize a unified front. But there isn’t any leadership and no one cares enough to care.
Oh, and thanks a lot to the low info marketing mavins who thought of adding the “Q”. In the mainstream public view, that’s bound to roll back any achievements fifty years.
Whew, there’s a lot of charge in your reply there!
I disagree that there is absolutely zero cohesiveness in the trans* community; from my own experiences, I certainly have encountered clear examples of trans* solidarity and mutual support. I’m honestly not sure where you’re coming from in making this argument, although based on your use of “we” in your post, I am making the assumption that you yourself identify as either trans* or a part of the trans* community. Is the trans* world a wholly cohesive and united community? Absolutely not. But the exact same comment could be made about any excluded group. The organizations you’re mentioning on FB may not be clear examples of “leadership” in the classic sense, but reposting articles does serve a purpose- it helps fellow trans* people connect with new information, and to share that information with our non-trans* allies (and potential-allies). It is a lot to ask people who are busy dealing with their own personal transition to also work as a solidified social movement; these small gestures of mutual support are invaluable as part of the personal aspects, which will, in turn, lead to a bigger social movement. If that is what you’re labeling “narcissistic platitudes”, I challenge you to consider that each person deals with the coming out process in their own way, based on innumerable experiental factors. Its not my place or your place or ANY individual’s place to make a value judgement as to what it should look like or how it should happen.
In addition to this, I want to call you out on the assertion that we “only benefit from the legislative achievements of gay and lesbian organizations.” I am a trans*man who is also gay and president of a major campus group representing all GLBT students at my university- I’ve made a visible impact on the culture here vis a vis campus policy, campus culture, and so forth. I refuse to give credit to gay and lesbian organizations for the work that I as a trans person have accomplished. Any social movement is building on those that came before it; trans* rights is linked to gay and lesbian rights as well as Women’s rights, which have roots in humanist movements, in African American civil rights, and so on. That doesn’t imply that the achievements of trans people (and there are multitudes of them!) are due solely to gay and lesbian rights. In many ways, the progress made by gays and lesbians often is done not to support trans* people and our rights, but exactly the opposite.
And now is my turn to be charged: I don’t understand your goal in posting this here. This is a discussion about safe spaces and trans*bashing- yet you offer only further bashing of trans* people. Why?
“the male culture has manifested itself in the space. Trans* students and queer female students tend not to hang out there, because it just doesn’t feel like “home”.”
You make a lot of assumptions about where trans men feel at home–
Many commenters are obsessing about “spaces”, and this is pretty interesting for me at the moment.
For reasons that might not have to do with being trans I was socialised mostly in all male environments. My group behaviour and speech follow male-ish patterns and I feel most at home in all male groups. In all female groups I’ve been lost as I didn’t get the unspoken rules. This led to a lot of trouble when I got involved with the newer trans* men’s movement, as many of the guys there bonded over their shared queer/female past and unconsciously expected group behaviour that is female socialized. It took me some time to understand why I had the same problems there as in all-female groups, as I saw and see these guys as men. I had to learn that they were men with a mostly female socialisation.
Different socialisations can lead to lots of misunderstandings and “un-relaxed” social contacts. Making this all about “priviledge” confuses the issue more than it does help.
(I’m referring to the poster below who accuses male socialized trans women to make her female spaces “unrelaxed”)
I could overstate this and say that I feel that some female socialized trans men make my male spaces unrelaxed.
This is no reason for kicking them out though.
There are cis men and trans men with female socialisation and cis women and trans women with male socialisation. People are different. Get over it.
_______
Female socialized agression behaviour:
“Girls employ relational aggression. Relational aggression is behavior specifically intended to hurt another child’s … feelings of inclusion in a peer group.”
http://www.canadiancrc.com/newspaper_articles/What_About_Girls_Aggression_Ohio_State_1997.aspx
“the male culture has manifested itself in the space. Trans* students and queer female students tend not to hang out there, because it just doesn’t feel like “home”.”
I’m pretty sure this came from one of my comments (it sounds like something I’d say), and I appreciate your making note of the apparent assumptions. However, the space I’m referring to is specifically the GLBT center on my campus, and I know that trans* students and queer female students don’t hang out there out of discomfort, because we’ve talked a lot about it. If you look at the sign-in sheets (not that you personally could, I mean if one looks at them), the in the “gender” column, it’s almost universally “M”, and the “F”s (or others) are usually two-to-three regulars to the Center.
So, in the case of my campus GLBT Center, I’m not making an assumption- it’s based on personal experience and conversations. That said, I hear and agree with you that it can’t inherently be generalized to a population outside of my particular campus. I didn’t mean to imply a generalization, and I apologize for not being more clear.
Hey, I’ve never been to your university, obviously. And it could be that I’d hate that centre too. I’m just saying, you are making assumptions about trans people.
How do you know that you know all trans people on campus? And how come you think that trans men will neccesarily feel uncomfortable in such a place as you describe? I know many trans men who are part of such an environment and thrive there. I also enjoy all male spaces. The combination of “trans* students and queer female students” suggest to me a very specific segment of the trans community, that is by no means the whole of the trans world.
I totally get why you don’t feel comfortable in that centre and I think they should change the centre to be more open.
It’s just that I as a trans person, have felt much more often uncomfortable in queer and trans* spaces than in male spaces, and I know I’m not alone in that.
I’ve never experienced de-sexualisation as a trans man in gay male spaces, not even without T. Nor do I see it happen to other trans men. I think I know about 30 gay trans men who regularly get laid or have longterm committed relationships with cis men, all age groups (most are from european countries though I know a handful from the US as well).
Cis men fall into different categories depending on their sexual reactions- some will date trans guys even before T, others will date trans guys with T but without surgeries, others will only date trans guys with full surgeries, and some will never date a trans guy no matter what. I have been with men of different categories and most have not been transphobic. Like anybody they can’t force sexual reactions- one guy was in love with me but just couldn’t interact sexually. He cried. While tragic, I don’t call that transphobia. So before you start shouting transphobia when someone doesn’t want to have sex with you, ask yourself if he’s just being honest about his sexual abilities.
There are transphobic gay cis men but they aren’t hard to find- they will tell you so in your face.
I believe the gay cis male dating scene is very different from the straight or lesbian dating scene, and needs very assertive, proactive, often non-verbal behaviour.
http://notanotheraiden.com/guest-post-advice-to-newly-out-gay-trans-men/
I have never thought that anyone who didn’t want to date me (or any other trans person) because I’m trans was transphobic. I think all people have a right to their personal attractions and their personal preferences.
My own definition of transphobia has to do more with the public, rather than the private, sphere. It would make a good post, now that I’m talking about it, so I think I’ll save most of it for that, but my feeling about transphobia is that not dating a trans person just because that person is trans is not transphobic, but not voting for a political candidate just because that person is trans is transphobic. I’m saving the rest for a blog post. Thanks for the topic idea!
Its interesting that my comments were understood to incorporate transphobia; I didn’t use the term in my comments, although I can understand how it would’ve been read that way. My intention, however, was to make a more general statement about the experience of having a non-normative body; being unwittingly considered asexual is not the same as transphobia.
This idea has been shaped by my personal experiences, which are perhaps more linked to where I live- I don’t have a car, and live in a relatively small city in upstate NY, I also live on campus at an expensive private university. I don’t generally want to be in the GLBT Center here, because I feel surrounded by economic privilege there; moreover the center is nearly always peopled by cismen and theirs is a culture I have yet to feel a part of. This is related in part to my past experiences with sexual assault. I did an informal survey of these gay and bisexual identified cismen and most of them said they probably wouldn’t be interested in a sexual relationship with a transman (one of them said “eew pussy!”). In fairness, this was an informal thing, and I don’t consider the answers transphobic for the reasons Matt lists above. But it does limit my dating pool. So, I wonder to what extent my difficulties in finding a partner is related to geography?
Also, according to a 2008 poll done in the US, only 8% of Americans know a trans* person (or, know that they know one). This makes sense, really, seeing as comparatively, the US trans* population is rather small. It stands to reason then, given that 92% of Americans don’t know a trans* person, that a large number of gays and lesbians also don’t know any trans* people, meaning that odds are they also don’t know much about trans* people. The culture in which we live, one that is generally anti-sex, leaves people guessing on how sex works, regardless of what kind of sex people are having. Based on the limited awareness of straight sex, the even-more limited of gay/lesbian sex, it stands to reason that there is even LESS awareness of trans* people sex, particularly given that trans* bodies challenge the commonly held assumptions about what bodies should be, should do, and how they should be used. I make this statement to expand upon my comments at the start of the thread.
I don’t mean to contend that my experience can be generalized- it seems as though it can’t. I also would add, after having thought about it some, that maybe some of my lack of luck in love is linked to my own issues with my body- I’ve been on hormones for a year now, and that’s all I can afford (I can barely afford that, I live on my student loan money and a work stipend from this pricey university). Top surgery is a long way off for me. I carry around a great deal of body shame, and that probably changes the extent to which I “put myself out there”. I’m not sure how to deal with that, but its an additional piece of information for this discussion.
“Top surgery is a long way off for me. I carry around a great deal of body shame, and that probably changes the extent to which I “put myself out there”.”
You’re not alone.
I’ve been on a dating website (Ok Cupid) for two years. I’ve recently met someone who doesn’t care about my shell. She’s cis and ID’s as queer. (I’ve had no luck with cis people who ID as straight, bi or gay. I’m queer) I continue to work on my body issues.
There are people out there who won’t care. It’s just challenging to find them.
Matt, I was referring to Unexpected Press’s post, sorry for not posting it there.
Looking forward to that new blog post
That’s okay. I always like to pipe in with my two cents about that issue, because I really do believe that if a guy doesn’t want to date me because I’m trans, that doesn’t make him transphobic or shallow. He might be both, or he might be neither, but it has nothing to do with whether or not he wants to date me.
If a guy doesn’t want to date you he mostly has no taste, Matt ^^
There are certainly places that work better and places that work worse for a gay trans guy. Your environment sounds very specific, so I can’t say anything about it.
When you are pre T or in transition but not passing, it’s obvious that dating with a cis gay man (or even with many trans gay men) is more difficult than when passing.
Also, for some gay men (be they cis or trans), dating someone with “female parts” is out of the question. That’s just reality. “Eww pussy” is a mean thing to say, but what he is meaning is: I’m not sexually attracted to female looking/smelling/lubricating bits, the idea of sucking it makes me a bit nauseous (as all sex that you are not into makes you a bit nauseous). – So don’t take it too personally if you can.
Gay men are men who had to fight for their right to suck penis against great obstacles- it’s only to be expected that some will feel uneasy around trans men.
On the other hand there are quite a bunch of gay men who will date all kinds of trans men.
What I see often in gay or straight trans men who had little social group contact with men before transitioning, is that they have a lot of social anxiety about men and are easily put off. You are approaching this whole thing very theoretically and with surveys and data instead of just hanging out with men and having fun.
Also, if you bring in a very high standart of feminist/political agenda (I don’t know how to say this in English), and very high expectation on how people should behave, that is: looking at male communities basically from the outside, then you will have problems. I don’t say that you tolerate any sexist bullshit from men (cis or trans). I don’t do that. I’m just saying that male communities are functioning and communicating very differently from female communities, on a structural level. There is a chance that when you have problems with men it’s more because you don’t get the social cues yet. I can’t explain this in a short paragraph you really need to experience it.
Actually male communities are often much fun and a lot easier to deal with than female communities. I know a bunch of trans guys who lived in lesbian communities before transitioning, and they really enoyed the change. All men are not evil creatures lurking, nor are they all highly privilegded assholes (though *some* men, and women, are).
What I’m trying to say here is that when you bring in a lot of negative stereotypes about how “men” are, then you will have a hard time meeting guys, as they will sense that you see them that way. They are only human after all ^^
“There is a chance that when you have problems with men it’s more because you don’t get the social cues yet. I can’t explain this in a short paragraph you really need to experience it.”
Hm, I think you make a good point. Its an awkward situation to be in, though: last year (I’m in my second year of transition and my second year of study at this university) I spent a lot of time in the GLBT Center on campus, around a LOT of gay/bi/queer cismen, and after that year, as I entered school this year, I just… hm, don’t like to be there.
But I think this is due much more to economic issues than to gender/sexuality. As I mentioned, I attend a private university, and the student body is predominantly people with money- lots of iPhones, iPads, macbooks, androids, and so forth. Food is costly here, people have different cultural expectations about aesthetics and language, and so on. I’m poor, as in, living on $2000-3000 a year (well below the poverty line in the US), and paying for my expensive education entirely through loans. So being around all these nice and costly items has a way of reminding me about the stress I feel when it comes to money (namely not having enough).
With all of this in mind, I’d like to revise my initial comment to an extent, because through this conversational process I’m beginning to see that my frustrations are less linked directly to being a gay man who is also trans* and more to the fact of where I live, on campus at a private university whose culture just isn’t mine (and isn’t going to be mine- I’m here for a specific degree and when I graduate I’m not sticking around!). I stand by my comment about asexualizing non-normative bodies, but I think it needs to be pulled back into a more theoretical discursive level, in the realm of social philosophy on a whole. Clearly my experiences are not the same as many of the posters here, so there is some more finessing to be done in my thought process on the issue.
I also appreciated the comments about trans*men moving into mens-spaces: for me, my time in womens/womyn’s/and lesbian separatist spaces was remarkably healing, a way to learn to care for myself after my assault. It was a large part of how I was eventually able to come out and start my transition. But the spaces are bound to be different, and I think due to where I’ve been for the past two years of my life as male, I haven’t had a good opportunity to find a mens-space where I fit in culturally/ socio-economically. In other words, I seem to be conflating a few issues if that makes sense.
Thank you for reminding me to re-think, and also reminding me that I live in a little world of money and economic privilege, and that there ARE other places for me to be where I can feel at home!
I’m sure you don’t have it easy. Also, going through all that stuff, and having such huge changes in life from separatist lesbian to all male space is a big social change. Being trans in itself is not easy, with negotioning the social aspects of transitioning and so on. It’s important to find places where we feel comfortable, whatever they might be. Good luck to you!
As a bisexual trans man I have experienced and witnessed both kinds of exclusion: trans people bashing GLB people, and GLB people bashing trans people (and GL people bashing bisexuals, occasionally), and it really sucks not to have a space that is “safe” for me
I understand that some might feel “invaded”, but I’m not safe in cis straight spaces, and I wished there were “queer” spaces where I could feel at home without having to face one side of the coin or the other
I have seen such a space, actually. I have a friend who has cultivated friends from all walks of queer life and has them to his home regularly. It’s a warm and welcoming place, but there is a sign at the entrance advising visitors that it is an all-inclusive space, no one should assume anything about anyone and no derogatory comments are tolerated. It might take a lot of doing, but maybe you can create your own space and invite those that you find to be open and inclusive. I hope you do because we all need a place to feel safe and welcome.
A bit late on my 2 cents here, but, here goes. Well, first, lemme link this wonderful bit from Ivan Coyote, a trans butch lesbian (born female, but generally a guy in every way, but after much deliberation, decided to still go by female pronouns, which even knowing that, I struggle with because male name and appearance).
And she’s 100% right. In the broadest sense of the word, the people who started the entire gay rights movement, drag queens and butch women, were trans! Many of them were probably actually trans men and women in the sense that we identify as (MtF/FtM), but that was all they could do back then. A lot of the GLB community forgets that. I was just recently at the women’s international leatherfest, and when asking one of the older femme lesbians about how she saw gender as a whole progress within the movement over the years, not just the improvement of women’s inclusion, she lamented that the increased visibility of the trans movement was “stealing away all of the butches”! Yeah, all the really masculine, stone butches who didn’t want to be touched maybe. And while I was mostly treated as the woman I am at the event, there were still some who used male pronouns for me (one was definitely accidental and apologized, the other few not so sure, probably accidental and just not calling attention to it). The event thankfully had a trans panel at the outset, and one of the coordinators is a trans man friend of mine, but a lot of other women’s spaces aren’t so friendly to us trans ladies.
But I think there is that perception within both the gay and lesbian communities that we are traitors to the gender we were assigned at birth, and that we will never truly be the gender we identify as. Matt has said before that when he first came out, his sister asked if he was sure he wasn’t just a lesbian. As trans women, we get asked either “why can’t you just be a normal gay guy?” if we like men, or “why don’t you just stay a guy if you like women” if we’re lesbian. I’m sure the guys have it in reverse, the “why can’t you just admit to being lesbian?” if straight and the “why don’t you just live happily as a straight woman?” if gay. And those of us who are asexual confuse them all! I also think part of the issue is the “stealing” image they have, that we’re taking away all the butch lesbians or the swishiest of the gay men, which they fail to understand isn’t the case.