A reader writes: “I have an OkCupid account, and while I don’t state that I’m trans (FTM) in my profile, looking through the questions I’ve answered makes it pretty obvious pretty quickly.
“All too often, I get people writing to me saying that they’re ‘into FTMs’ or ‘attracted to FTMs,’ which really always just baffles me (I do not feel any automatic sense of community on the basis of being trans with any other trans guy I meet), especially when it comes from people who also describe themselves as lesbians.
“I’ve tried engaging in a conversation about it with two people now, trying to question/challenge their preconceptions of FTMs (whether it be based in physicality or personality, there’s nothing I’d bet money on as a constant for all FTMs as a group). The first never replied, and the second tried to defend themselves by arguing ways they ‘can always tell apart an FTM from a bio male,’ at which point I gave up on the conversation.
“What is your take on this kind of sexual attraction label? And how would you reply, or not reply, to these kinds of messages?”
While I have never been particularly offended by people who are specifically attracted to trans men (or to trans women, but that’s a grayer area, because I’m not a trans woman), I also acknowledge that there’s a fine line between attraction and fetish. And I do have a problem with a situation where people are basically interchangeable – any trans man (or trans woman) will do.
So when someone says, “I’m into FTMs” or “I’m attracted to FTMs,” for me – on the surface – it’s similar to saying, “I’m attracted to blondes” or “I’m into brainy people (or geeks or bodybuilders or whatever).” There’s something about a certain “type” that a person is attracted to.
The person who is attracted to blondes doesn’t necessarily hit it off with every blonde he or she meets, but it’s a starting point. The person who’s into brains doesn’t necessarily mesh with every smart person he or she meets, but it’s a starting point. And, for some people, I think there’s something about the idea of a “female” past or a “female” socialization that seems – in theory – attractive, particularly to women.
“Maybe this guy won’t be such a control freak,” they think, or “Maybe this guy won’t be such an asshole,” or “This guy knows what it’s like to be a female in this culture, so maybe he’ll be more understanding of my situation and my concerns.”
Now, we all know that this is not necessarily true. It can be, but it’s certainly not a given, and I have met many trans guys who reflect male stereotypes as much or more than non-trans guys. But, for some people looking for a partner, it’s a starting point. And then, when they meet the guy and find out that he’s not really what they are looking for, they move on.
I believe that there are some people who are sincere about this. Maybe their last boyfriend (or girlfriend) was trans, the relationship worked really well, and they are hoping for something similar. Maybe they have friends who are trans and they are looking for a partner who is similar, or they know someone else who is in a great relationship with a trans person, and they hope to create that for themselves after failed relationships with non-trans people. I don’t necessarily consider this wrong or bad.
The problem comes in with both the generalization about trans guys (that they are all going to be a certain way) and the assumption of interchangeability (that no other characteristics matter, as long as the guy is trans). To me, that crosses the line into fetish.
In addition, there is the “fad” aspect. Trans people are kind of hip and cool right now (hip and cool enough to get television ratings, but not hip and cool enough to have equal protections under the law). There are people who want to be with a trans person to show how liberal, open-minded, and edgy they are (Impress your friends! Piss off your parents!). I’m about as hip and cool as a poodle skirt and about as edgy as mainstream country music, so I’m not the one they’re looking for.
And then, of course, there’s the body – and this is where major problems arise. Trans women have been fetishized to death (and, unfortunately, that’s not a pun or a joke – it’s real). Their bodies are literally not their own sometimes because of the ways they have been sexualized and the fantasies that have been built around what they might or might not “have” under their clothes. And they have often paid dearly for these individual and cultural prejudices and obsessions.
For trans guys, the absence of a penis (or at least a “factory-installed” penis) can be particularly attractive to some people who are attracted to “masculinity” or a “masculine” appearance, but not to a traditional male body type. Some women don’t want to be penetrated during sexual activity, and others can take it or leave it. For some women, a penis has very negative associations, up to and including sexual assault. Some men who have only had sex with men want to “know what it’s like to have sex with a woman” without really doing so (I’m not making this up, because I have been propositioned in this way).
The problem with the “body thing” for trans guys is that there is this underlying insinuation that the trans guy is not really a man. In some cases, a trans guy who is approached by a lesbian feels that the woman does not really see him as a man – if she did, why would she be interested? This is different from an ongoing relationship where a partner transitions, although I have heard doubts from guys even in this type of situation.
With regard to personals sites, such as the one you describe, I think you’re right that assumptions about personality, physicality, or both probably figure into these preferences that are being expressed. For me, that wouldn’t necessarily be an automatic deal-breaker. But not replying to my question about it, or telling me that trans guys are easily discernible from non-trans guys, would be. If someone could articulately express why she (or he) was specifically looking for a trans guy, and the reasons made sense, then I would probably be okay with it – but there are lots of guys who wouldn’t.
Now, finally to the short answers to your questions: “What is your take on this kind of sexual attraction label? And how would you reply, or not reply, to these kinds of messages?”
In the past, some women who have been specifically attracted to trans men have labeled themselves transsensuals. I don’t know whether or not that label is still in existence. Lesbians who are specifically looking for trans men would have to choose their own label (if it was not “lesbian”). Our labels for sexual attraction are limited, which is why I don’t like them.
I also think that a lesbian can be a lesbian and be attracted to a trans man (and I definitely think that a lesbian can retain her lesbian identity if her partner transitions to male), but she and her partner need to work on expectations with regard to how they see themselves as a couple, how the world will see them, and how each can retain his or her own sexual identity and gender identity, as well as respecting the sexual and gender identity of the other.
As far as how I personally would reply to these messages on a dating site, I would probably ask the person why she (or he) is specifically looking for a trans guy (or why that person is “into” trans guys), and what it was about me in particular that caused the person to message me.
But that is only if I was interested in the person who messaged me. If I wasn’t, I would follow the site etiquette, which might be to ignore the message or send back a polite “no, thank you.”
I think each person has to decide for him- or herself whether or not “into FTMs” or “into MTFs” is acceptable or a deal-breaker. And while I have written a little bit about this before, I was never a lesbian, so I can’t second-guess why a lesbian would be into trans men in general. Perhaps some lesbians and some trans guys involved in relationships with lesbians can shed more light on the subject.
Readers – thoughts?
I am an MtF so I couldn’t really say, I’ve never had a major problem with people who were into trans women, so long as they weren’t ONLY interested in me because I am a trans woman. I’m not freaked out by trans fetishists per-se unless they think they have a right to tell me what to do with my body, or see me as only an object of their fantasies. Conversely I would not date someone who identifies as a gay man. I would come from the assumption they saw me as a man still, or as less of a woman or something.
I suspect some of us with lesbian histories like trans men because we can have our masculinity without confronting our own (negative) stereotypes about men because “he’s not like other men, he was raised female.” For that matter, some transmen use their histories for the same purpose: not confronting their own stereotypes about men. My hope is that we use our experience with gender to confront ALL gender stereotypes, but lots of us sidestep that.
I am mainly commenting so I can get the replies, but I did want to say that:
I’m on that site as well. I’ve been single for the four years since I’ve transitioned (and retained my original plumbing) because romantically I’ve only met two types of people:
1. Women who, when they learn that I don’t have a “factory installed” penis, only want to be my friend. (read: I am no longer dating material, even though we hit it off in other major areas.)
2. Men who want to have sex with me, but want me to shave off my facial and hair because they’re not gay.
Its supposed to say “and body hair because they’re not gay.”
I am fully comfortable with the notion of fetishism as long as it’s not being represented as something else, something like “I want to get to know the real YOU”. I’m not doing all this work and making these sacrifices to be a sex object for somebody else and if anybody attempts to mislead me, said person will find out in short order that I don’t appreciate it. I know other transwomen who intentionally seek out that kind of attention. Each person needs to make and own their own choices. As for me, I have absolutely no interest in opening up myself on any online dating site.
As an active member of the kink community I have to complain about your use of fetish. Fetishes are irational desires for one thing, they do not nesicarily become the only thing that is important. Perfetly normal, nice people have fetishes for things and that doesn’t mean that they generalize or don’t care about the other person.
That said I do agree with you pretty much, just not the wording
There are people who are over obsessed with the person being trans for all the wrong reasons, and it can blind them to how the person really is.
From personal experience on a fetish forum site, I have not been hit on once, despite that my profile blatently says I’m mtf. (no one can search for people by gender though so it would be pretty hard). I was still surprised though, a good surprise. But either way I have come to think, is this fetishizarion all bad? I know that some trans women don’t mind the genitals that they have, not me included though, and that a sexual fetish with a certian ammount of respect between the two people is perfectly fine. Now, given, that is not the perception that we fight as given to us by the porn industry, and we therefore still will have problems.
Well this isn’t too much of anything new, but it is my hope that it will help.
I’m really torn about this one.
I’m beginning to wonder if the definition of lesbian should be changed to “attracted to certain body parts”. As so many lesbains seem to be attracted to trans guys even when they are on T, perhaps being lesbian (and other sexual orientations) is more about genitalia than previously assumed.
(some trans men don’t have that kind of genitalia but many actually do)
But at one point I was really pissed off when a trans guy wanted to date me who was specifically only into “women and trans men”. (I’m trans male).
I’m also wondering what the difference between “I’m attracted to (adjective) men” “I’m attracted to (adjective) women” and “I’m attracted to trans men” is. Isn’t it all some kind of fetish? Isn’t it even a fetish to be either attracted to men or women? What’s the difference between sexual orientation and fetish?
I’m gay so I’m more interested in men who date (trans) men. Recently I have seen some groups of gay or bi men who are specifically interested in trans men. For many it’s about the sexual pratices that might come with a certain equipment.
But only part of the trans men actually are into these practises so that’s another over generalisation.
On the other hand- I find it valid if someone is into male persons with certain equipment that allow certain sexual practices and goes looking for them-
Often the best answers yield more questions, such as these. Thanks for your input.
I think especially with trans people one cannot assume having a certain “equipment” (which, hormones effect that equipment even without surgery) means anything about what sex acts one wants to do. To a one cis male chasers have assumed I’m submissive and a bottom and that I bottom up front. Their assumption that I do makes me even less likely to want to do that.
As a Lesbian in a 26-year relationship with a year-out FtM Transman, previously (what I thought to be) Stone Butch Lesbian, I’ve long been attracted to the butchest of the butch lesbians, now realizing it’s probably transmen. However, I’m struggling with my man’s desire for bottom surgery and thinking that maybe being lesbian might be a more genital thing than previously thought like the above anonymous commenter said. (I’ll work through it like I’ve worked through the other changes, but it’s just an aspect that I’m working through right now.)
My wonderful partner has lovingly offered to bring another female into our/my life/bed so I can fulfill the lesbian part of my needs if/when he finishes the physical transition. We’re poly, so it isn’t a freaky idea for us. Still, it was a tender consideration for him to think about; I had not yet considered it.
If something ever happened to this relationship, I don’t know who I’d focus on for a potential relationship: butch dyke or transman? (Are they the same thing? Something I wonder about.)
“If something ever happened to this relationship, I don’t know who I’d focus on for a potential relationship: butch dyke or transman? (Are they the same thing? Something I wonder about.)”
NOT the same thing.
—“If something ever happened to this relationship, I don’t know who I’d focus on for a potential relationship: butch dyke or transman? (Are they the same thing? Something I wonder about.)”
NOT the same thing.—
I don’t know about that CaptLex. Maybe for navelgazingmidwife they are the same thing since that is her current reality. And she also said that she is in the process of working through stuff right now. And – a lot of us trans men have come from the butch dyke community. Was I always a trans man trapped in a butch dykes body? Or was I a butch dyke who became a trans man?
Only you can answer that and I can only speak for myself, but I know it’s NOT the same thing as it relates to me. I was not a lesbian before transition and I’m not a butch dyke now. It could be that other trans men will identify as butch dykes (though I can’t see how), but even so, the comment is a sweeping generalization so I still say NOT the same thing.
I have to agree with CaptLex. A butch dyke is a female who embraces (or is at least comfortable with) her femaleness, and loves females. Obviously my definition because of my experience and not a definition that can be found in Webster’s.
I am a (trans*) man who loves women so I am definitely Not a dyke.
Femaleness as in physical gender presentation specifically.
This is something I see come up time and time again, especially with younger trans folk. There’s this notion that lesbians cannot ever, ever, EVER date trans men without “admitting” they are “really” bisexual or straight. Which is so ridiculous! I always point out that back in the 90s this whole issue was already addressed with “Chasing Amy”–that Kevin Smith film where a lesbian and a (cis) man fall in love. She wasn’t no longer a lesbian, she was a lesbian in love with a guy, and that was OK. And there are plenty of people in real life that this happens to also–when I was coming out years ago we called this “an exception” to whatever you’re normally into.
I’m a queer FTM, and for me, I like the idea of being with someone who’s body is like mine. I’ve had people tell me it’s wrong to like trans guys, but then why is it OK for cis men and women to use the same explanation for their gay identity? Why can’t I use it for mine because I’m trans?
Overall it just saddens me that all these stupid assumptions about labels means some people would probably never give me a chance if I said “I like (other) trans guys” and not even ask why or try to understand. I don’t understand a lot of other people’s orientations (like my friends who are only into cis men, which is apparently OK) but I don’t cut them out of my life because of that.
On the other side of things, knowing about the fetishization of trans* people makes me wary of contacting them if I do run into them on a dating website.
“Will they assume I’m interested in them because they are trans*?”
So even if they’re interesting, I worry myself into a shallow grave before I’d even talk.
“Will they assume I’m interested in them because they are trans*?”
Speaking only for myself the answer is no, unless you made it obvious that was the case. I would assume that you found me (or something in my online profile) interesting and wanted to know more.
Give it a go-not everyone assumes the worst.
I am a lesbian. Attracted to many aspects of *trans (although a man is a man and I would not say “transman” unless he preferred). I also use queer to more accurately describe myself since lesbian seems, to most, to indicate I feel fully female and date people who feel fully female. That being said, I am in a monogamous relationship with a cis-female. Because I love her. But initial attraction goes to people who have some degree of gender variance. It is the same attraction I don’t have for blondes. Or girlie girls. Or for bad teeth. None of those three will inspire a date. And if I said I was not attracted to blondes, girlie girls, or bad teeth – no one would really take issue. This isn’t a fetish. In my experience *transmen have a flatter chest (due to surgery, binding, or lucky genetics) and don’t wear makeup (most – not all!). In my experience they are also more accepting of all people. When you get beyond the sexuality binary, and then the gender binary, and, also, the sex binary … it seems there is a more honest, connected, and integrated person. It isn’t “hip” in a in-your-face way. But people who have liberated themselves of the western dualism mindset are, by very nature, amazing. Do I only date *transmen? No. I may never date again, now that I have a “domestic partner.” Would – all things being equal in a dating site profile – a *transman be more desirable. Yes. It is a freeing of the mind, a willingness to be authentic, and a look-thing. Oh – and NO – dykes, butches, and *transmen are not all the same.
Also, looks can be deceiving. You get a headshot or two when online dating. I have met some great and not-so-great folks. The overly macho attitude does not sit well with me. It is a starting point in dating. It isn’t the end-all.
This was written a while ago, bur I feel I should respond. You are incorrect in assuming that transsexual men automatically are out side of the western dualism of gender. I am a transsexual man, but I am well within the binary. I don’t see myself as anything other than a man. Also, I know plenty of male chauvinist trans men.
Oh! And sometimes people include that they are attracted / or interested in *transmen to be inclusive of folks who often don’t know where to find people who will be accepting of their non-conformity. It can be a way of saying “you count too!” and not a hard preference. With dating sites being so rigid about identification then folks can have a problem knowing how to “market” without “deciept” – if you list as a man then the majority will have certain expectations. If you list as a woman then you may feel misplaced from the start – and have a host of new societal expectation. I think an ad saying someone is “trans-friendly” is a nice inclusive sentence.
Ok…
I am a MtF, and I have to say that it takes a special kind of person who is open to who you are vs what you got under the hood so to speak. My GF and I have been together 2 years , and we met on Chemistry.com.
She knew from the get go I was Pre-Op, and although she had not been in a relationship with a Man, she saw the person that could be her match, and a partner, and at some point, a great lover.
I am Pre-Op and soon to be Post, and i can say that intimacy is an area in which we had to be willing to be a little creative, or at least some parts were left alone.
True its been a little one sided, and I am a giver, and I know that se wants to reciprocate, but that will come in time.
The bottom line is that it didn’t mater (doesn’t) what i have or don’t have below my waist, its what I have in my heart that was most important, and should be to those looking to find happiness.
I never liked fetish folk, so it never was an option for me.
Ha ha you made me laugh out loud here in the office with your statement “I’m about as hip and cool as a poodle skirt and about as edgy as mainstream country music” OMG that’s just funny. Thank you, it is right after lunch and things can get a bit slow this was perfect. Thanks a million.
Kiyun
I haven’t been or dated on a site, but here is a different take on maleness
I have been with my partner for 9 years, and we have been married one. I don’t consider myself as becoming or transitioned into anything. I feel like I evolved from one thing to another, similar to how a caterpillar turns into a butterfly,
I lived most of my life as a woman and I am grateful for that and will never deny it or turn my back on it, but now it’s time to live the rest of my life as a man, a man of my own making without labels and expectations. I think the way i feel about embrassing my Maleness and my Femaleness has afforded me to continue with my relationship with my wife without either of us giving up our identity (she is a lesbian)
We know society at large will see us as a straight couple.. However we surround ourselves with LGBT community and supporters this helps us to have a healthy balance mentally,socially and spiritually.
I would be lying if I said everyday is perfect… It’s not but as I keep evolving and growing and learning about myself Iam allowing myself to be transparent, I am allowing the world to see that there is more to this man than what you see in front of you.
,
I agree with you Matt… the whole “I am into (insert general catagory here) is a red flag. If for nothing else, but the respondent’s inability to show compassion and empathy and approach the person as a PERSON first. If someone told me they were “into transwomen” or had dated a transwoman before (“so hey I am totally cool with it”) in an opening introduction I’d be leery. It’s depersonalizing. “Hey you have red hair. I dated some red hair before and I liked it. Maybe you will be as nice as that last red hair.”
Using terms like open minded, compassionate, considerate, sensitive, etc while introducing yourself sends the REAL message that you understand that I may be nervous about being trans in a dating situation and you will help me with that. Saying you are “into” my type, or have experience with my type, just makes me think you want to get your own rocks off without regard to who I am as a person.
If I was curious enough to overlook someone’s usage of those terms I’d ask them WHY they mentioned it. Are they ONLY into trans? Why?
I think what a LOT of people are missing is the vast variety of trans men there are. If they’re looking for somebody who lived as female or grew up as female, trans men might not all fit that mold – some kids transition before they even hit elementary school these days . I don’t know about y’all, but I don’t have very many memories pre-elementary school and the ones I do have are not really gender-related at all. If they’re looking for somebody with a certain set of genitalia, or specifically somebody without a penis, trans men might also not fit that mold. It might not be the majority, but many trans men do have a penis through surgical intervention, not to mention the men out there who use a prosthetic or consider their “factory installed equipment” to be a penis in the first place.
I dunno. If somebody told me they’re interested in trans men for a certain kind of sex (involving a vagina), I’m probably involuntarily crack up laughing at their naivety. I’ve heard several people translate “I’m into women and trans men” into “I don’t like penises” when asked what that means to them, which is just ridiculous! Because there are women and trans men who have penises! It blows my mind.
Of course, I’d be willing to explain all of that if the person is receptive. I haven’t encountered somebody open to my explanation yet. Perhaps I need to learn to hide my initial reaction so they’re not put on the defensive. That’s something to think about and work on.
I think there’s a big difference between someone saying ‘I’m attracted to FtMs’ and ‘I don’t mind you being a FtM’.
The first one says something like ‘I think you’re attractive because you’re trans’ and the other one ‘I think you’re attractive regardless of you being trans’.
Personally, I’d never date a guy who explicitly said he’s ‘into FtMs’ after learning that I was born with a female body. First and foremost I identify as a *man* not a *transman* – granted, a man who’s body went the other way than his brain which resulted in a troublesome medical condition, but that’s it. That was an identity part. Now there’s the dysphoria part. The only reason I don’t intend to go through any kind bottom surgery is because their effects are way from being satisfying, especially compared to risks and costs (at least in my opinion). I don’t want some guy telling me he finds my lack of penis attractive because I really want to have one.
As someone in a relationship where we both refer to ourselves as lesbians, it can be hard for trans men that knew who had a sense of their masculine identity earlier than I did. Background: I’m a 20-something trans man that has known my partner for a decade and been dating each other exclusively for several years. I didn’t start transitioning(currently hormones, top surgery later this year) or even understood I was trans until last year. Being a lesbian has more to do with my politics and how I treat women than anything else.
Having said that I agree that someone that is trying to exclusively date trans men because they don’t have a “real penis”(p.s. fuck you, I do have a dick) or some other reason than their personality is a trans chaser.
There are also trans men who are only attracted to lesbians (just as there are cis men/guydykes who are only attracted to lesbians). Maybe the problem is that our categories are just way to imprecise to descrive the variety of human sexuality.
I’m a little late on responding to this one, but I do concede that while this issue is pretty complicated, I see some clear points within the morass.
Having had a significant amount of experience with fetishizers of trans men as a trans man myself, I can say often we do have really hot sex but it’s often based on complete bullshit that I let them believe so we can fuck. Often these encounters have made me feel dirty afterwards.
I don’t at all think having a “preference” for trans people is like liking red heads or not liking tall people or whatever. Trans people are an oppressed group who are also still quite misunderstood and invisiblized. Our very bodies and backgrounds (often what people claim to be attracted to) have a hard time being understood by cis folk under cissexism and are always generalized and quite often misunderstood. WIth cissexism alive and well this will be the case.
Now, I don’t fault trans people for getting with chasers. Many of us have sexual needs.
I have been on testosterone for years, and while it’s possible someone could read me as trans, I don’t buy the “I would always know you were a trans guy and not a [real] guy” because that person already knows I’m a trans guy! It’s obvious confirmation bias.
I also haven’t had any surgery, but I basically function as a switch with a micropenis and a middle hole that is at this point a no go area. I often want extremely phallo-centric sex whether that means me topping with a prosthetic or toy, or me getting tons of blow jobs. I just can’t do front hole penetration due to both dysphoria and the changes from testosterone/estrogen suppression–so to think of me as having a cis female genital set up is pretty idiotic. I can’t get fucked in the front hole (maybe one finger) and I like being sucked and can barely feel being licked. And I want to top ass. I’m sure there’s some cis woman out there who could also say all those things, but she’d be pretty rare. Consequently, my needs are pretty similar to a pansexual cis male switch. It’s really not rocket science to understand why this would be the case.
Now, I do have attractions to other trans men. Generally I am more attracted to guys my own height or shorter. I also am not a size queen and prefer sucking smaller dicks. There is something about a testosterone dominant system that I’m more attracted to as well. Finally, I’ve never tried to hook up with another trans guy and have him get wigged out by my facial or body hair or my baritone voice, which I cannot say for many cis men I’ve considered hooking up with.
I think ideally the answer isn’t “don’t be attracted to trans men!” but to realize that a lot of that attraction may be based on bio essentialist bullshit and cissexism. I never was a woman and if that’s the basis of someone’s attraction to me I’d rather go the rest of my life celibate.
I’m trans, I have a “straight” past dating men, and I’m still into men. I also fell for some transitioned trans men.
It baffles me that anyone would see “woman” in trans men. I fall for trans men because they are men, not despite them being men.
But it’s more complicated, now that I come to think about it. I couldn’t date a non transitioned trans guy, there would be not physical attracttion.
So is that cis sexist?
I’m more concerned with people having inaccurate views about trans people than people (trans or not) choosing not to date trans people. If you are unattracted to trans men not on testosterone, I assume you would present as simply uninterested in dating them. You wouldn’t berate them for their choice or necessity (it is medically contraindicated in some) of not being on T. You probably wouldn’t say they were really women, or special special men.
With cis people as well, it’s a much better position to explicitly state a disinterest in dating trans people for example and then not date us than to assume everyone is cis and that trans people are stealthy deceivers.
Most people clamp shut at the very idea that their sexuality might be biased, which makes the topic EXTREMELY hard to talk about. I feel in your question there is an inherent push for me to justify your choice not to date trans men not on T, but I’m not really in that business. So if you are ok with it, that’s mostly all that matters. Just like a cis person who will not date trans people is probably being cissexist on one level, but is being honest about their preferences no matter where they came from.
I am flexible sexually but I tend to prefer testosterone dominant people.
I don’t understand the comment that “a cis person who will not date trans people is probably being cissexist on one level”. If I understand correctly, a person is cissexist if they feel trans people are somehow inferior or less authentic than cis people.
Why can’t I, as a cis female who enjoys cis males, just have my preferences, and other people have theirs without being labeled as somehow intolerant of others?
Yes, it’s important who a person is inside, but quite frankly the physical is usually important when it comes to sexual attraction and pleasure. Personally, I like my partner to have an original fully functioning penis (along with other attributes). That’s my preference. Maybe you think me shallow – but I’m being honest – I am attracted to certain physical traits, and turned off by others. That doesn’t mean I think trans people are inferior. It doesn’t mean I think bald men are inferior. It doesn’t mean I think people who smoke are inferior. It just means I have certain preferences that vary from those of others.
So it has to be an “original fully functioning penis” (as well as other attributes) as opposed to an “after market fully functioning penis” (and other attributes)? That’s what it comes down to for you? That’s it? So for those of us who had bottom surgery and a history you’d never know about, we’d be dating material for you? As if.
I think it sucks that you knew that was the line of my comment that would encourage cis faux outrage and here you are, with your cis faux outrage. I’m a male, and I have a functioning penis. If your sexuality is only for cis males, you will notice that I said I don’t really care. But it’s still a symptom of a cissexist society. Having a preference for the by far dominant and oppressive group CANNOT be compared to not liking bald men. Not liking bald men is not telling them they don’t have functional penises. I’m sure there’s a million ways you could phrase your preference for “not trans males” but really, it means nothing until you meet a guy you really like whose status you assume without thinking is cis male. It’s not like we have a scarlet T on our foreheads.
I hope if you can anonymously post your outrage on a blog you can in real life discuss your preference with the people in your life without assuming everyone you might be attracted to is a cis male. If you state it your Ok Cupid profile or at work or on a first date or similar, it will give trans men the clear signal to friendzone you without heartache on either side.
Again, I’m not here to condemn you for your preference. But I’m not going to congratulate you either, or tell you that it’s ok to imply trans male categorically do not have functional penises. I doubt it impacts your life a tenth of a percent of the way it impacts mine.
Wow. And here you are with your trans faux outrage. I was just trying to understand where people were coming from, and just because a cis person tries to question something, it doesn’t mean they’re expressing “outrage”. Given the reaction here, I don’t suppose there is any way I can word my penis preference without offending someone.
I fully understand that I could initially find a guy attractive, and not know that he is trans. I get that. But any guy I initially find attractive, whether he’s trans or not, could be someone I later decide not to have (or continue) an intimate relationship with because he has, or lacks, certain physical traits not readily apparent when he was fully or partially clothed.
I suppose it depends on one’s definition of “fully functioning penis”. You appear to assume my preference is for “not trans males” – but I haven’t been real happy with cis guys on Viagra for various reasons, so for me, their penis isn’t fully functional but they’re not trans. And while a trans guy’s penis may be fully functioning for him (in that he gets sexual satisfaction) is it fully functioning for his partner? And yeah, I’m guessing that an original penis (at our current state of medical technological ability) looks different and performs differently than an “after market penis”. So…I meet a guy and we hit it off well enough that we end up being intimate. I then find out that he’s not quite what I want down below – could be that he’s trans, could be that he’s not. Just means I have certain physical preferences that certain people don’t meet.
Your post is like, since I’m cis, if I don’t like every penis I come across, I’m somehow cissexist, or because I prefer a certain sort of penis that I am in league with the oppressors.
At the risk of further upsetting someone, I’m wondering if for people in the middle of the gender spectrum, physical attributes are generally not as important as they are for people on the ends of the spectrum? Again…just asking. Not outraged. Just asking.
You picked up the mantle of this discussion without duress. This is an interesting philosophical issue to you, apparently, but to many people here these are the negotiations we have to deal with in our lives many times if we are not celibate–on top of it also being an interesting philosophical issue.
I don’t know how to pretty it up for you. You are completely free to have preferences, just like a white person is free to say “I only date other white people”, and someone is free to say “eww, no fatties.” Those are also based in societal bias. It’s not about making someone date or have sex with someone they are unattracted to. It’s the idea that preferences about people’s bodies are not sacrosanct and if we are to talk honestly about things, we have to realize that issues around attraction are both as informed by society as anything else we do as people, and for an adult integrated in some sort of society, can have profound effects on the rest our lives.
If you came here to receive a trans stamp of approval that you can spurn trans male partners–I’ll stamp your passport. It would be extremely silly to try to coercive someone into something they don’t want to do. But if you aren’t open to the idea that everything is connected and cissexism is omnipresent in the background like your upstairs neighbor’s bad music tastes–I’m not sure what you are looking to get out of this conversation. I’m not apt to concede that point.
Um no….I wasn’t looking for a “trans stamp of approval”. And lest I sound like I’m fixated on penises, my first husband (deceased) was quadriplegic, and had no feeling or movement from the chest down.
While I agree that we are often influenced (in many areas) by societal bias, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the cissexism point, because to me, many of my preferences are biological rather than societal, and are not an indication that I feel trans men are inferior.
“…everything is connected and cissexism is omnipresent…”
Speaking of which…Back to the dating site OKC… There is a question that asks when a trans person should state that they are trans, with the choices for answers as follows:
1. It should be clearly stated on their profile.
2. During messaging and prior to meeting (or something close)
3. Before intimate contact and sex (or something similar)
4. Never
Now my question is when should a cis person state that they’re cis because this question is total bullsh*t, a great example of cissexism and an outrageous assumption that everyone is cis. It’s frustrating to see how many cis people choose the first answer.
Wow. Really? I wasn’t aware of that. Yikes. I can see where that would be frustrating, and it’s understandable why you would be upset over something like that.
I’m sure there are many other instances of where cis is assumed unless otherwise indicated. (But I still don’t see how my physical preferences in a sexual partner mean I’m cissexist.)
I often see disclosure debated within trans community type spaces with a lot of people not hearing each other. Honestly I don’t even talk about it that much unless someone seems to be asking for advice without an agenda. And honestly, cis people can vote as early and as often as they’d like to try to dictate when/if trans people disclose, and hell will freeze over before it influences my own patterns. that’s just being honest.
I don’t see why cis people would even have a vote on when trans people disclose. As far as dating sites, I’d think everyone should choose when they want to disclose what they are – it seems unreasonable to have just one, or a few, groups disclose upfront.
“hell will freeze over before it influences my own patterns.”
Amen