A reader writes: “My question is handling prospective relationships across different faiths, and faith vs. no faith. Personally, I prefer to date other atheists. I have a very painful past with religion. However, I get a lot of flack for making organized religion a deal-breaker. Here are my reasons for that:
“1. I am a militant, hardline atheist. I don’t make any apologies about the fact that I did a lot of research over the course of three years into the Abrahamic faiths, and I learned a lot that most believers either don’t know or choose to ignore.
“2. I have PTSD when it comes to churches. I literally cannot go into one without taking a Xanax and hoping it doesn’t wear off and I don’t have a panic attack.
“3. When someone is heavily faithful, it permeates every aspect of their lives, and, by default, the lives of those close to them. I don’t see how this could be avoided.
“4. I want to understand my partner on a deep level in every way possible. Dating a faithful partner would mean that there is a deep part of her, and something she holds very dear, that I cannot understand, and, in some ways, don’t even have a whole lot of respect for.
“5. I view religion as a huge reason for the oppression of LGBT+ people in America and around the world, and I really can’t see it being anything short of masochistic to participate in a system of beliefs that, essentially, finds my mode of living and the very core of what I am to be some kind of offensive abomination.
“Now, do you see these reasons as valid for making religion a deal-breaker when searching for a mate? If not, why not?
“Also, I have been accused of being discriminatory, but I put it into the category with all other deal-breakers. For instance, I don’t want children, and don’t date women who have or want children. Nobody seems to have a problem with that. Why is it a problem to make religion a deal-breaker, but not kids? I’d love your perspective, as well as that of your readers, on this issue!”
First of all, it is my opinion that anything a person considers to be a relationship deal-breaker is valid for that person. No one should have a relationship, or even a date, with a person in order to avoid accusations of prejudice or discrimination, and no one should have to justify why he or she is not interested.
This is why I have no problem with a person who says that he or she does not want to date trans people. I don’t consider this to be transphobic. Now, this person might be transphobic, but not simply by virtue of not wanting to date us. Everyone has a right to his or her personal preferences.
If a person doesn’t want to date me – for any reason – then I would prefer that the person not waste my time. If I’m looking for a date, I’m happy to weed out, right up front, the ones who aren’t going to work out.
So as far as your reasons for not dating a religious person – or any other person, for that matter – being valid, I would say that they are. You know what you want and what you don’t want, and you have a right to go searching for the person who will work for you. You also have an obligation (in my opinion) not to lead someone on when you know that something about that person is a deal-breaker.
By the same token, a person has a right to go searching for someone within his or her faith, or someone of faith, period. I don’t think anyone would question a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim dating service, and I don’t think anyone would question people specifying a religious preference for their dates. So there shouldn’t be a reason why people would question your desire for an atheist date or partner – but I think there is a reason.
Atheists are not thought of very highly in the United States, and no doubt in some other parts of the world, as well. A 2006 University of Minnesota study found that “Americans (note: U.S. Americans) rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in ‘sharing their vision of American society.’ Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.”
However, a June 2012 Gallup poll revealed that 54 percent of those polled would vote for an atheist president if he or she was their party’s nominee. This is up substantially from 1958, when only 18 percent polled said that they would, but it’s still only a little more than half of U.S. citizens. In addition, a poll that I read about but can’t find now (maybe readers can link to it if they find it) said that U.S. parents would rather have their child marry a convicted felon than an atheist.
Not only are we not particularly popular in the United States – we are also a definite minority. According to a recent Gallup poll, about 5 percent of U.S. citizens say they are atheists. This is up from 1 percent in 2005, but still a very small percentage.
So if you live in the United States, I suspect these two factors – our non-popularity and our very small numbers – are the primary reasons for the accusations of discrimination that you receive when you say that you will only date atheists.
I doubt very much that a member of a large religious group, such as a Christian, a Jew, or a Muslim, would be accused of discrimination if that person said that he or she would not date an atheist. Most people in the U.S. would understand that, because most people in the U.S. are religious. I think unpopular minority groups are an easy target for all manner of criticism, whether it makes much sense or not.
Again, although I know that many people don’t agree with me, I don’t think that anyone should date a person who possesses deal-breaker characteristics, whatever those are. What’s the point? I don’t see it as discrimination so much as common sense.
It’s true that there is a possibility that your mind could be opened by dating such a person, but there’s a stronger possibility that you and the other person will be miserable. People aren’t social experiments. We should not be dating people to prove something to ourselves or to anyone else. We should date them because we find them attractive, share their interests, enjoy their company, or for other positive reasons.
That’s my perspective. Now I hope we will hear from readers on theirs. Readers, you’re on.
(Ask Matts are backing up a little, but they will all be answered. Thanks, writers, for your patience!)
I personally identify as an agnostic. I can not confirm or deny the existance of any God. I can’t quite bring myself to say there isn’t one or many for that matter. I will say that I definitely have issues with organized religion because so much discrimination and oppression has occurred through it and so many people who are involved in it, just repeat what they have heard without critically thinking and studying about their particular faith. That within itself would turn me off to dating someone in organized religion.
All of your points are valid as to why you choose not to date some one of faith. I am a little bit concerned about what has occurred in your past that would make you need a xanax to even enter a church building and I am sure that has played a considerable role in why you have choosen your particular path, but don’t we all have something that will unnerve us to all ends.
It is people who make the rules by which we live, not God. You don’t need God to teach you how to live a moral and ethical life and to use God as a means to control the masses is what I find morally and ethically repugnant, but I also do know and understand that a great deal of good has come from organized religion. There are sects of faith that do not discriminate and oppress. There are those people of faith that are looking out for the social welfare of others and there is the possibility that you are cutting yourself off from that section of people.
I just think that as critically as you have looked at religion for the bad things that have occurred you should also take into consideration the good things as well.
Hi Pascal,
I am the OP. I really value the opinions of this community, and have gotten a lot of different, often harsh responses on the subject. The thing is, faith only became a dealbreaker after dating 7 religious women. So, it isn’t like I haven’t tried, and it isn’t like I don’t realize that not all religious people are close minded bigots,etc. I have no trouble befriending folks of faith, but in my dating relationships, I need a deeper connection.
It always ended in argument when I dated religious women, because they could not refrain from insisting that I participate in their religious activities, and I couldn’t refrain from ranting at them about how they had no respect for my non belief and how much I think organized religion is the scourge of the planet.
I realize that there are sects that don’t discriminate, but I a) don’t believe it and b) feel that no matter what good religion has done, the discrimination, crusades, oppression, bigotry,etc far outweigh those goods. All the good done by the religious can be done without it IMO. I take a very Bill Maher view of religion, honestly- ie, I see no good in promoting delusion as truth.
The things that happened to me include a bashing where I and my then partner were left for dead by people who stood up in court and claimed to be doing god’s work, and ex gay conversion therapy. Just a really terrible experience all around and something I want nothing to do with.
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the morally repugnant uses to which religion is put, and I am definitely with the American Humanist Association- Good Without God.
In short, if she’s not agnostic, atheist, secular, skeptic,humanist,et al…no deal. I just can’t bring myself to believe that it’s a good idea to enter into a partnership like that.
I think there is a difference between a minority (in this case, atheist) not wanting to date a majority (in this case, religious folk) and the reverse. Minorities do not hold the power to systematically marginalize the majority and sweepingly declare them to be “undatable”. Minorities don’t have the power to look down upon or even outcast other members of their community who choose to date the “undatable”. For these reasons among others, I don’t have a problem with atheists who choose not to date religious people.
Thank you for posting such a well thought out response, as always, Matt! I think you bring up a VERY good point re: how atheists are seen in the US and around the world. I’ve had people be absolutely REPULSED when I tell them I don’t believe in god. It’s such a touchy, contentious subject. I am a member of atheist nexus, one of the largest social networking sites online for atheists, and, overwhelmingly, the other atheists there say they just don’t want to deal with it. One guy made a very good point re: the little things.
-Would I be ok with crosses on the walls when we move in together?
-What about kids we had influence over, would I be ok with indoctrination?
-How would I feel watching her pray?
-We all know what most religions say about LGBT folks. What if she left me?
-How would I feel about her constantly thinking I’m going to hell?
That conversation went a long way toward my making it a deal breaker…and I think it was the right decision for me.
Thank you again, so much, for this wonderful community.
As a former Athiest, I now prefer non-theist, I had the same reaction to religious people & systems, that you describe, for most of my adolescence and some of my twenties. However, I found a home at Unitarian Universalist (UU) Churches, which often have large numbers of Humanist and Athiest or non-Theist members/attendees. I enjoyed the UU crowd, because they espoused social justice/action ideals that resonated with my queer politics/ideologies.
Then I went to seminary in my late thirties, because I had a deep yearning to understand what influenced so much hatred, under the guise of religious faith/belief. What I learned surprised me: fundamentalist religious beliefs/practices are NOT in alignment with ANY religious scriptures/teachings that are based on accurate scriptural interpretation.
However, most religious/devout/faithful people do not now this! For that reason alone, I decided to abandon my Atheistic POV and adopted a non-Theistic POV, which for me means I am no longer ‘against religion,’ instead I take a neutral position, knowing what I know from my seminary training. I no longer refrain from attending religious services, of any kind. I find them all educational and sometimes inspirational. I particularly enjoy the unprogrammed Quaker Meetings and find them very welcoming and social justice/action oriented.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not mean to challenge your Atheisism. You have come to it on your own through educating yourself and personal experience. Like you I have had very negative interactions with religious people and even suffered religious abuse in childhood, but I found I could no longer harbor such angry and/or fearful reactions & responses.
You are absolutely entitled to be selective with dating partners. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves if they believe that they do not exercise the same selectiveness for varying reasons: height, weight, race, sex, gender, etc…
I know it wasn’t your intent to challenge my atheism- thanks for that. I consider myself more of an “anti- theist” or maybe a “new atheist”- meaning the vocal atheists that demand to be heard, that want crosses out of schools and government buildings,etc. But I am curious- how did you let go of being so traumatized by religion? That might be helpful to me. Doesn’t mean I’ll go dating a fundamentalist or anything of the sort, but I am always open to growth.
And you are so right re: people fooling themselves. We all discriminate, particularly in dating…
“how did you let go of being so traumatized by religion?”
It was a fairly long process… But I can trace the beginnings of the healing process to one specific interaction I had with a Christian man at a Pride event in Denver, CO in 1997 or 1998.
I was on my way home, from a long day of volunteering in a booth, when I encountered a person protesting Pride. I had encountered such people at Pride events since 1984 and on that day erupted into an angry tit for tat via bible verses.
I was armed and ready for the altercation, having completed a Biblical self-defense course at an MCC in the mid-1980s.
I found that I was “winning” the struggle, he was beginning to slow down and listen to my statements. It was then that he revealed that his sister was lesbian and I pounced. I attacked him verbally, using scripture of course, to shame him for turning his back on his sister. He began to weep. I felt vindicated. I just walked away.
Within minutes a sense of sadness came over me, my stomach was churning and I felt compelled to go back and apologize to the man, for berating him and using scripture to justify my actions.
I discovered that doing to another person, what had been done to me, for years, felt absolutely aweful. I vowed to never treat another human being with such contempt again. And I have not.
This discovery sparked a deep interest in knowing more about Christian theology, religious teachings and people. In seminary I completed a two year study of systematic theology, which provided an educational foundation for my non-Theism.
There is more to the story, of course…
Wow, that is fascinating, Zander! Thank you for sharing….
I grew up in the Bible Belt, and have ALWAYS been obviously gay. By the time I was 7, family members were all whispering to my parents “put a stop to it. You she’s gonna grow up to be that way.” So, by the time I was 12, and they saw my fascination with women, they went to…wait for it..a fundamentalist baptist preacher. I wound up in one of those ex gay camps, and they did all manner of horrific things to us there…I came out, first, sounding like a little Kirk Cameron, parroting what I had been brainwashed into believing. Finally, I cracked. All the doubts I had had about my faith since age 9 came flooding back, but I still feared my parents reaction…so I attempted suicide. That was the first of 6 attempts. By the time I was 15, I no longer felt like a girl, and started wearing men’s clothing, binding my breasts,etc. But I didn’t want to be a boy, either. My parents were, of course, more horrified than ever. At 17, I embarked on a course of study into religion, its history,etc that took me to seek testimonials, read holy books, and visit 2 seminaries. I came out of the opinion that you did- that fundamentalists are wrong in their interpretations, but, nonetheless, that I wanted nothing to do with such a hateful system of beliefs.
I admit, I’ve said some pretty terrible things to people of faith who berate me, and I always feel that same overwhelming sense of guilt you did with the man in your encounter. I wish I could, face to face, encounter someone like that…it might change my world as well. I do work on just walking away when I feel that contempt rising these days…but, as I am sure you well know, its not easy. Maybe one day, I, too, shall reach the point you have. Thank you so much, again. You have no idea how helpful you have been.
I’m glad my words/experience helped you!
Definitely, and I’d love to hear more some day. I’ll drop the generic email here that I use when connecting on blogs.
proudgenderqueerdyke@gmail.com
Matt,apologies if that is against the rules, but I have that email for the specific purpose of public posting. Feel free to delete, if you need to, of course.
I don’t see how this compares to not wanting to date trans people. Religious people are not an oppressed minority. I don’t particularly consider atheists an oppressed minority either (I guess we disagree on that), and I am one–so I’m not just speculating.
The problem I see in someone ostensibly cisgender saying they don’t want to date trans people is often the statement is made in ignorance of who is trans. Frankly, I’ve known three people off the top of my head who had once said they didn’t want to date trans people who are now partnered with trans men.
But really, while we can argue that sort of thing all day, I much prefer cis people who make it very clear they won’t date trans people. A lot of the ‘disclosure’ arguments in our community would die down if more people (cis or trans) expressed whether they do or don’t want to date trans (or cis!) people. If someone made that clear to me in a personals profile or on a first date, I would know not to waste my time and expose personal history by disclosing to them.
I think it has more to do with the fact that we are not indiscriminate, that people have all sorts of qualities that they do and don’t want in a mate. Personally, as a genderqueer individual, lesbians often won’t date me because they think I am trying to be a man. That isn’t true at all- I am just an FAAB person who sits in the middle gender wise and that is who I am and I am comfortable with that. I have dated lesbians, trans women, genderqueer FAAB people…that isn’t an issue for me, but it is for some.
And atheists ARE definitely a marginalized minority. Try telling people you are an atheist at work in the bible belt and see where it gets you. Most likely a pink slip.
I get not wanting to date a faithful member of the big three (aka the Monotheisms or Abrahamic religions). You might, however, consider that many devout non-monotheists (Pagans, Heathens, and many others) not only don’t discriminate, but don’t believe there is only one right path or that it’s their (or any one else’s) job to convert people to what they believe, nor do they necessarily participate in organized religion (or expect a significant other to join them if they do). So you might be unnecccesarily limiting your dating pool by putting all religious practitioners in one box.
That said, dating is. Personal activity in which you have every right to be discriminating. Incompatible beliefs can be a dealbreaker in the success of a LTR, so just not wasting anyone’s time going there to begin with makes sense.
Thanks for that. And you call them the same thing I call them- the big 3! That’s neat.
Anyway, yeah, pagans, or buddhists or heathens or LaVeyan Satanists are likely just fine. Its the church stuff I can’t get down with.
I.absolutely don’t see it as discrimination.people choose partners based on a number of criteria; everything from gender to mutually enjoyed activities.
I wouldn’t want to date someone who sits around and plays video games all day. I have nothing against video games or people who play them, but I don’t find them stimulating or entertaining, and I wouldn’t have much in common, or much to talk about with a person who did. That’s discrimination, but without the negative connotation; it’s merely a lack of common interest and a difference of opinion.
I wouldn’t want to date a religious person for the same reason. Fundamental disagreements on major issues seem like a poor basis for a successful relationship. I likewise wouldn’t date someone with an opposing political affiliation or opinion, a vastly different opinion on how (or whether) to raise kids, someone who wanted to live in an extremely cold climate, or someone who only listens to country music.
These a re things I have a strong opinion about, and I can only see these things leading to arguments and each person constantly trying to bring the other over to his or her point of view.
Everyone has criteria for dating people. Everyone discriminates when it comes to the person they’re dating. Or maybe I should say no-one is indiscriminate. If this wasn’t the case, we would all end up in arranged marriages, or marry the first person we could stand to be around. It’s not a job interview; it’s a life choice.
I have met a few Pagans, Heathens and Atheists that do discriminate but no group, regardless of what it’s based on, is completely innocent of discrimination. Depending on how you look at it, everyone does or has discriminated against another person quite a few times in their life. Now, I don’t see it as discrimination, but as expressing that someone does not fit my personal criteria of whom I want to date, be friends with, etc. And I know, for one reason or another that I might not fit another person’s criteria for various things, and prefer to know sooner rather then later the truth of that. It’s certainly not fun hearing that, but I’m a big girl, I’ll get over it.
I think everyone discriminates. I mean, I’ve had women- particularly on sites for queer FAAB folks of color- say that they won’t date me because atheism is for white folks, or call me a traitor because race is not a discerning factor for me and they feel it should be. Thing is, we all have the right to set limits. I guess, perhaps, I was just wondering why THIS LIMIT seems to be such an issue.
“I need a deeper connection. It always ended in argument when I dated religious women, because they could not refrain from insisting that I participate in their religious activities, and I couldn’t refrain from ranting at them about how they had no respect for my non belief and how much I think organized religion is the scourge of the planet.”
Well, duh! Why do you even try? Atheism and Christianity are two world-views that can never, ever share the same podium. I’m a retired marriage counsellor and I can tell you flat out that if either person takes h/her world-view seriously, that relationship stands no chance of working.
A co-worker with opposite faith? Sure.
A family member? Can do.
A recovery group member. It can work
A romantic partner? Not a chance. Why even go there?
But there are some people who manage to make it thru, even those who are firm in their beliefs. Now, personally, while I like discussion and debate on various topics including religion, I prefer to date other Pagans, Unitarians, or of like mind.
I dated a really cool pagan once. We lived in this activist camp with a bunch of other genderqueer folks and lesbians. I went to drum circles and solstice celebrations with her. It was awesome. I could see myself with “alterna path” folks. Just not Abrahamic believers.
Cousin, you need to do you. Maybe some of the people who are mad at you are actually upset that you have real boundaries in your relationships and it’s something they haven’t been able to master yet. Just a thought.
I know we’re supposed to be all about inclusivity and reaching out to each other, but it’s just hard to date across certain things. Period. And what people ought to remember before they shoot their mouth off is that you may build a home with this person. And home is somewhere you BOTH need to be your whole selves. Because when you’re out in the world being marginalized, you need a safe space somewhere.
I’m a Christian, and I’ve had interfaith relationships, as well as relationships with folks who don’t believe at all. They’re very difficult. And it’s not like enjoying different flavors of ice cream or styles of music. You’re right to be aware of how much faith is a part of a person’s life.
My faith is the main reason I do all my queer activism. It influences which books I read, TV shows I watch (I”m so sad GCB was cancelled), where I spend my time, why I don’t have cable, and so many other things I don’t think I’m even aware of them.
So be proud of yourself. You’re setting limits and being responsible for your part of the decisions that come with dating and choosing someone. That’s the right thing to do. Maybe you need new circles of people.
Thanks for the reassurance, SeaLinc2. And you hit the nail on the head with the little things. I dated my last theist briefly awhile back…and…well, those were the things that came up. Like, we even went to different events for activist activities, and we got into a roaring fight when a gay organization wouldn’t accept open support from atheists and she defended their decision..I was very uncomfortable with prayer, she was very uncomfortable with my activities with American Atheists…on and on. It was like..a light bulb going on. when you date across faith, you see, big and small, all the things whatever worldview you have there influences EVERYTHING about you. It is a disconnect that, in my view, particularly if one has strong feelings either way…will be a wall that is nearly impossible to tear down. Thanks so much for reading and commenting.
It is discrimination, but as people have noted, it’s not necessarily a “bad” form of discrimination.
That said, I do think the rhetoric you use to describe how vehemently you hold anyone with religious faith or belief in contempt might be the reason people say you are discriminatory or are questioning what you’re doing.
It’s one thing to say, “I don’t understand or connect with people of faith” or “being an atheist is important to me & I prefer to date people who share that belief.” It’s quite another to say flat out that you know more than people who are religious or that they are engaged in willful denial or that it’s masochistic for LGBT folks to participate in religious communities and that you have no respect for any people of faith.
You have been badly traumatized by religious people and religious community, and so you have demonized anyone who might even remotely resemble those people. And you think you “know better” or are more informed or educated about religion than anyone else who might think different.
That is some damaging, hostile talk right there. It’s not healthy for you & a sign that you’re still healing from the horrible crap that happened to you. And it’s harmful because you will alienate many potential allies and friends. Let’s say someone is an atheist, but they have a religious sister or friend. A “we agree to disagree” attitude goes a longer distance than, “I hold the people you care about in contempt.”
As other commenters have noted, not all religions are the same, not all faiths are the same, and there are even significant variations and denominations within the big 3 that you’re lumping in as all the same.
I suspect it is this type of language and beliefs that is drawing a negative reaction from the people accusing you discrimination and forcing you to validate how you feel. People aren’t reacting to the fact that you are more compatible with or attracted to atheists. They are reacting to the fact that you are saying directly or implicitly that you think all people who believe in God or a major religion are bad people or stupid or ignorant. And that’s some bad discriminatory nonsense of its own.
I think you may have misunderstood. I definitely have plenty of buddies of faith who know just how I feel about religion, understand why, and are fine taking an agree to disagree stance. I don’t push with them, they don’t push with me, and we’re all cool. I don’t hold THEM in contempt. The beliefs? Yes. I cannot say that at this point I think there is anything logical about religious belief, and when the subject comes up, I say how I feel. I am a very honest person.
You are right when you say I am still traumatized. It also doesn’t help that so many religious people hold me in contempt for being an atheist.
But I want to reiterate that this stance has NOT kept me from having many wonderful friends of faith who I love and respect dearly.
Dating, however? Whole other ballgame. That stuff is not something I want influencing my home, my day to day life…and it would certainly be a huge point of contention, specifically if she insists upon going to church and participating in organized stuff and dragging me along.
And I don’t think I am more educated than ALL people of faith. But I have done research into the matter than many of them don’t. Plenty of people have problems with religion, and there’s a reason for it, usually.
That’s a helpful clarification. I think the language presented in the questions comes off different from how you have just explained it here.
Thanks for sharing!
Yeah, I wanted to be as clear and to the point as possible about just WHY I have begun to feel so strongly about this.
This is real interesting! Matt, have you come out as athiest?? I think alot of the problem is just like anything else that people have no knowledge of and they react in fear of that thing. I do n ot belong to any religion but come from a Roman Catholic background. I then went to a Lutheran church. I’ve been to UU but the buses don’t run well on Sundays and it all takes up too much time on that day. I have nothing against athiests at all. I actually know very litle about their beliefs other than there’s no god or gods. I wonder who do they think created the universie and all that is in it? Not Man. I don’t know any athiests so I haven’t had any real opportunity to discuss these things with them and find out what athiests actually believe. I have an open mind!
I think the biggest rift between the god-believers and the no god-believers is the fact the believers don’t understand the athiests point of view. Athiests know the god-believers’ view because most are brought up within some denomination of the Big Three. To me, it is the same thing about how straights don’t understand life as LGBT but we understand straights’ lives as heteros because we are brought up with this as well.
On top of that, the Christians feel they are commanded by Jesus to shove their beliefs on others in the misguided view that they want to “save” that unbeliever from Hell. This bugs alot of us. Life would be soooo much better if we all had our beliefs, respected others for their own beliefs, and agree to disagree and do it respectfully.
For this reason, people have to do what they must when determining whether to date someone and others have already mentioned these things. I remember when it was a huge no-no for a Catholic to marry a Protestant and the Catholic Church even had a rule that forbade such marriages generally. If they did marry a person who was not Catholic, they had to promise to raise the children as Catholics. My mom’s parents were one of these unions – and my Mom and her siblings were raised Catholic. Her mother was Catholic and her father was Lutheran – something I learned about 12 years ago when I went to the Lutheran church and mentioned it to my mother.
I see the Christian fundies as no different than the Muslim Taliban and their sort. Religious fundalmentalism is really BAD for everyone! To the person who asked the question, you do what you feel is best for you. Some people can cross major lines like politics and religion and make a great relationship and others cannot. it is all OK.
This is a really interesting conversation. No, Lyn, I’m not coming out. I was actually raised in an atheist family, so I have never been in. I have never thought about it much. I don’t write about it, because I focus my writing on trans stuff, and it doesn’t really come up. I haven’t experienced a lot of negativity in my life with regard to being an atheist, but I did have some friends whose moms didn’t want them to play with me because of it, and some boyfriends whose moms didn’t want them to play with me because of it.
I have had some people who don’t want to associate with me, but it has not hindered me. I do think that atheists are hated and sometimes persecuted in the U.S. and in other places. I think it might have affected me more if I had gone into a different field of employment or if I had aspired to a higher position, such as politics.
I don’t see it as a belief system, so I don’t say, “This is what I believe.” I see it as the absence of belief in a deity or deities. As far as who created the universe, I don’t think anyone did. I think it happened. So far, science has come up with enough information and enough solid theories to satisfy me with regard to life, the world, and the universe at this point. I think there is a lot we don’t know and there will be many more discoveries before we’re through, but I’m satisfied with what science has given us up until now.
So that’s how I think, but I certainly don’t represent all atheists, so I can’t say how others think. That’s just me.
Hey Lyn,
As for what we believe- no god or gods is right. It really does end there.
Well, since you’ve never talked to an atheist before, I am happy to oblige you.
Thank you Matt! I have some friends who would spin into orbit about atheism and get into big fights about it. I agree with the science – I’m so facinated by it all! Personally, I do believe that there was some force or God that started it all. but, you know, to me, it’s perfectly OK for people to believe or not believe in what I believe in. the problem is that the whole world is so phobic in diversity of all kinds and I just don’t underatand this at all. the way people have their beliefs and how they clutch so dearly and fanatically to these to the detriment of other people who are good and productive people. I guess I’m closer to atheism than to organized religion because I feel no need to cram it down people’s throats and I enjoy hearing others’ takes on life and creation.
Here in San Diego, they fight over a huge cross that is a war memorial and put more money and energy into keeping it or tearing it down than they put into actually making the lives of veterans better! Unbelievable.
That sucks that people threw you away just because you don’t share the same beliefs as others. You should have been judged on what kind of kid you were and not what your parents believed or you yourself believed. Reminds me of how Leslie Feinberg got treated by other kids and parents because they was (can’t seem to get how to properly use the non binary pronouns in a sentance!) Jewish in a non-Jewish neighborhood – not to mention their gender noncomformity. I found Leslie a wonderful, caring person when I knew them in the 1980s. thanks for the great blogs and go on being you – you’re awesome!
Another area where Australia is ahead! At the last census atheism was the chosen response of over 15% of the population. Even our Prime Minister is a declared atheist. The two highest denominations were Anglican, 22% and Roman Catholic 27% but we should bear in mind that if a person says he or she is atheist, they mean it, whereas many of the denominational attributions are habitual and non-practising.
I guess we should remember the immortal (!) words of Mort Sahl, “The trouble with being an atheist is you don’t get any days off. But it’s worse being an agnostic … you don’t know if you get them off or not!”
That’s hilarious. My parents loved Mort Sahl. Thanks for the memories!
I’m not familiar with Mort Sohl – I liked that quote! I guess it is good that so many pagan aspects of Christmas and Easter still remain strong in our culture. Even Halloween! No matter how hard the Christians tried to stamp out these ancient celebrations for centuries, they never snuffed them out – they are as strong as ever!
Interesting about Australia and how it feels about its athiests. People have a hissy fit over a black President or now a Mormon candidate for President. Can you imagine how people woould react to an openly athiest candidate for President?? Actually, maybe that’s what we need these days! I think we would have alot less of religious wars over how one believes in god and all and maybe we’d all get down to solving the real problems in the world.
I’m tardy to the discussion, but I had to chime in with my pagan-y opinion. Or, pom-pom waving anyway. Because I can’t really do much but agree with the message. Tolerance, be true to who you are, and pick your dates with thoughtful care.
Another excellent example here, Matt, of intelligent discourse and polite education.
(I love this blog.)
Julie
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